Podcast Transcript - Episode 0024 - The Dry Challenge with Hillary Sheinbaum

Welcome to the Professional Drinkers podcast, brought to you by chooseunrise.co.uk. I'm Janet Hadley, and this is for you if you're an HR professional, a business owner, or a leader who'd like to explore the drinking culture in your workplace. I'll bring you lived experience stories, expert views, and tips for creating an alcohol-safe workplace without killing the buzz.

Hello, and welcome back to the Professional Drinkers podcast. I'm Janet Hadley and I am your host. And we are just coming up to the end of January. How exciting. So who is doing dry January and who's still going? If you are hanging on in there, Keep going and keep going past the end of January. You may not appreciate me saying that, but it is so worth it. If you are reaping the benefits of putting down the booze, if you're feeling more energetic, more get up and go, perhaps you've lost a little bit of weight, perhaps you're just enjoying that feeling of putting your head on the pillow at night without the booze coursing through your veins and waking you up in the middle of the night. You're enjoying feeling rested. You're enjoying feeling clear-headed. Why not continue? And we have quite a number of people who have joined our 101 Days to Sober programme recently who has started off with dry January and just want to carry on. It's a great time to join us because there's lots and lots of other people in the group who are going through the same experience as you.

So have a look on the Choose Sunrise website and head to 101 days to Sober if that feels like something that might be of interest to you. It's super low cost. It's £101 plus VAT, a pound a day. I mean, come on, how much more than that are you spending or were you spending on It's a no-brainer. And staying on that topic of dry January, I will introduce our guest for today. So Hilary Scheinbaum is based out of New York City. She's a very cool young woman. She's an author, a journalist. She's a freelance and she writes independently, is regularly featured in the New York Times, and lots of publications that you will have heard of, such as Marie Claire and all the big magazines and all the all the glossies. She's fantastic. And she has written a book about, specifically about, taking a short break from alcohol, not a permanent change, a short break. Now, as I've just said, personally, I think 30 days isn't enough. I think 100 days or 101, as we say, is the perfect amount to have a proper reset with alcohol. However, choices save lives. And there are different ways that people find their way to sober.

And if a 101 days feels absolutely unachievable, do 30, because it is better than doing nothing. And there is no doubt from the data that for moderate drinkers, taking a 30 day break has shown that throughout the year, the overall amount of alcohol people drink during that year does actually reduce. Now, it never used to work for me. If you're the person who is gasping for the first of February to come around so you can have the wildest night ever and drink unlimited quantities of whatever your tipple of choice is, then perhaps it's not quite the right thing for you and you might need to look at something different. But if you're a moderate drink care, taking a 30 day break is no doubt very, very helpful. So I will leave you to hear from Hilary.

So my guest this week is Hilary. Hilary Scheinbaum, I believe. Is that how you say your name Yes. Yes, you nailed it. Scheinbaum. Excellent. And I'm going to do something really unusual, which is to ask Hilary to introduce herself, because we have not met before, which is unusual for me with a podcast guest. So Hilary, off you go.

Yes, and this is like a blind interview. It's so different and interesting. So my name is Hilary Scheinbaum. I'm the author of The Dry Challenge, which is a non-judgmental for giving up alcohol during any month, but it is definitely most popular during dry January. And I'm also a journalist. So I have written for the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, and many other outlets. I started my career as a red carpet reporter, and I actually wrote about booze for many, many years before I did my first dry January in 2017. And after that first year, It really changed a lot for me. I would say career, definitely my relationships, my social life, and certainly my health, and my everyday living and breathing. So it was what started out as a very silly bet turned into a big life change.

Interesting. Yeah, there's a lot more to it than stopping drinking, isn't there? I'm intrigued by the red carpet journalism. Who have you met? Come on.

Everybody is, right? They're like, Who's the worst? Who's the best? I've met everyone. I've interviewed everyone from Brad Pitt to the Boys of One Direction. I guess they're men now. And Hulina Gomez, all the Kardashian, Kylie Jenner as well. I have not met Kendall. But But yeah, it was something that I did for five straight years, and I was on red carpets four nights a week and attending these celebrity parties. So I definitely had a fair share of drinks during that time, and I met a lot of different musicians and artists, and it was a very interesting- Yeah, I'm guessing alcohol is everywhere in that environment. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think it's a bit different now because people are more inclusive in New York most of the time. But back when I was a red carpa reporter, it was just what you did at parties. And I wasn't drinking necessarily on the job every night, but it wasn't discouraged either if you had a glass of wine or two.

Yeah, interesting. So you said that it was a bet then, that you what? Did someone bet that you couldn't do dry January? What happened?

Yeah. Oh, gosh. In 2016, around this time of year, I went to get sushi with one of my very close guy friends, and we hadn't seen each other in a while. So we were catching up about family and work and life and dating. And he asked me if I had any New Year's resolutions. And I told him no, because I didn't believe in them at the time. I still don't. I think that if you want to change something, you can do it the next day or Monday morning or whenever. You don't need to wait until January first. And he brought up this topic of dry January, which at the time, given everything I just told you, was not part of my lifestyle. It just seemed impossible. And so I changed the subject and we went on with dinner, and that was the end of it for at least a week. So on New Year's Eve, I was at a party in New York, and my friend Alejandro was, I think he was in Miami that year. I don't know. He was somewhere warm. And I was texting people, and I was saying, Happy New Year.

And I texted him, Happy New Year. And I proposed a dry January bet, which ultimately became the dry challenge. And so I was obviously tipsy because it was New Year's, and I had a glass of champagne in my hair. So I wasn't prepared. I definitely would not have made that bet sober. It was a silly decision that happened to work out for the absolute best. But given that my evening job was going to parties and my day to day freelancing consisted of writing about booths, it was something that was completely unthinkable. Yeah. And so it was such a change for me. We bet who could make it to the end of the month without alcohol. And I ended up- Yes, I was going to say, I bet you did. Yeah, I did. I don't know if you're into astrology. I certainly was not at the time, but I am an Aries, and we are typically very stubborn. So that makes sense that I was not going to lose this bet.

Yeah, fantastic. Just let me ask you about writing about alcohol. What do you mean? So writing for the brands? What were you writing about?

Yeah, so I was I still am a journalist, and at the time, I primarily focused on food and beverage. So I would write articles for USA Today, and a local newspaper called AM New York in the city, as well as Eater, a popular food website, and other publications, but those were the main ones. And I would write about cocktail trends, if there was a resurgence of a specific spirit, or if a garnish was over the top and very Instagram-able. I would interview bartenders, and I would interview celebrities about their favourite bars and restaurants. And it was... I'm I'm not going to lie, it was a lot of fun. But I really just enjoy meeting very interesting people in general. And so there were definitely a lot of characters in that space.

Okay. Yeah. So in the context of a food and drink journalism then? And did you get sent a lot of free samples? And did you get lots of free beers and restaurants and bars and things? Yeah, I can imagine.

Yeah, free drinks at certain bars or samples of vodka or wine. And it was part of work because I was sipping it and then writing about it.

So you see, I think that would make it much harder. I think having free booze, there's something about free alcohol, isn't it? People go crazy. I mean, like weddings and the Christmas party, whenever there's a free bar, it's almost like there's this urge just have as much as you can because it's free. I think we all have it a little bit. So how did that play into the challenge then? How did you find that?

I mean, there was this now or never moment for me. And besides work, I hung out with people who like to socialise and meet up at bars. And then I remember on January first, I went to brunch with a group of friends. And speaking of free, the server brought us free tequila shots, and there were six of us, and there were six tequila shots. And I remember thinking in that moment, if I don't start now, it was that one I remember it, I can smell the tequila. And it was just so memorable to me because I remember being like, All right, should I take this? And then just call it off and say, Oh, I was drunk when I texted you about this bet, and I totally didn't mean it. But I didn't. I turned it away. And it was definitely... I had to pick up other work, and that was fine. I wrote about more food instead of food, or I wrote about juice cleanses instead of- Yeah, tequila. The highest cocktail trends. But it was not a planned dry January. So I I really did not have any... I didn't know what to expect.

So there was something, wasn't there? So there's something going on behind the scenes that's driving you to say no to that tequila and to make this change. Do you have any insight into what it was that made you make that decision?

I think there were a few things. I think for one, I didn't know how the month would change me, if at all, but I was very interested to see if there would be a change. I did want to win. I did want to beat my friend. There's a point that I could do this, and I was going to stick it out, something that I committed to. But I do realise that even in College, I did not drink that much, very rarely. And in my adult life, especially living in New York, a city that you don't need to drive, it's very easy to say, let's have one more drink, or we can just grab a drink at the bar, which is such the typical outing for friends or dates.

Yeah.

It was a big change.

I bet it was. So tell me about what happened in that month then.

So during the month, I experienced dry dating for the first time. I found other ways to hang out with my friends. I definitely got a lot of questions, a little bit of bullying. And overall, I just felt so much better and healthier and had an elevated mood. My sleep changed dramatically. I went from sleeping 4 to 5 hours a night, which sounds insane because it is, to sleeping seven to eight hours. And anybody who has had a great night of sleep knows that it makes such a difference. So there were a lot of changes. And at the end of the month, I thought I was ready to drink again, and I had the worst hangover ever, I think, after that, even after a couple of glasses of wine, just because the tolerance was- Yeah, that's interesting.

So you went straight back to drink it, and after the month, and then you just thought, wow, what happened next?

Yeah. I mean, For me, the first year, especially, was really an experiment. I didn't know if this was something that I would continue doing. I didn't know if it was something that would ultimately change me. I really think that in my mind, there was a part of me that figured, Okay, I'm going to do this month. Maybe I'll learn some things. I'll see what it's like to go out and not drink. And that was going to be my biggest takeaway.

But that did not...

I mean, it happened, but also there were so much more of it.

Tell me how your life's changed then as a result of putting down that class. How many years did you say? Was it nearly five years ago?

So this will be This coming January will be my eighth year.

Oh, my goodness. I can't even do maths. Do you know what? What it is is that I think I'm younger than I am. That's what it is. I thought that I thought that 2016 was four years ago.

It's like a meme I think that, 2019 is five years ago and you haven't even processed it yet. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Yeah, that is terrifying. To be honest, I still think the '90s is about 10 years ago. So, you know. Oh, yes. You don't look old enough to remember the '90s. Maybe it's because you haven't drunk for eight years.

I was a functioning person.

I think I was a functioning person in the '90s, to be honest.

I mean, fair. But yeah, I'm not sober now. I don't claim to be just because I don't want there to be any miscommunication or misunderstanding, but I barely drink. It's very rare. And it really is often, if I'm being honest, to compare a lot of non-alcoholic beverages to the full proof versions. I'm a huge proponent of trying non-alcoholic beverages and replacing your alcohol.

Yeah, and what a change there's been in that in the last few years. I mean, I guess from the eight years ago, from you doing your challenge to now, it's night and day, isn't it?

It is. I actually have some here. I'm one of those people who also always has three drinks present. Brilliant. What have you got? In my book, I mentioned Curious Elixirs, which is such a staple, I think, in the non-alcoholic cocktail space. They have been around forever. But the space has really just evolved so much to the point where there are these niche brands, but also the bigger brands like Freshanet, alcohol-removed sparkling wine, they exist. And so does Mianetto, alcohol-removed. And those brands are first and foremost, alcohol brands, and they are becoming more inclusive in the space, and I think it's amazing. I also think that people are getting creative and using their energy drinks, Celsius, or their healthy probiotic beverages like Olliepop to make these concoctions where they feel they can sip among their friends and have a sophisticated, delicious, refreshing drink that isn't busy.

Yeah, I It's made a big difference. I do think that... Well, it's a bit chicken and egg, isn't it? I don't know whether the drinks came before the sober revolution or the sober revolution created it. But the two are both in rapid, rapid growth, the sober curious movement and the alcohol free drinks industry, which is super exciting, actually. It's a great time to be part of it. Absolutely.

It's such an exciting time. And it's so funny, even now, one of my favourite I have things to do, obviously, whenever I have people in my home, I'm making non-alcoholic cocktails with free spirits, bourbon or tequila, and non-alcoholic Damrac gin, and whipping up Palomas. But one of my favourite things to do when I am bringing a gift and going to somebody else's home is to bring Gleason, 0% non-alcoholic alcohol-removed wine, because typically other people are bringing the Host or Hostess full proof wine. And it becomes this fun game where people are comparing Sauvignon Blanc next to each other, or Roses. It's like, guess which one's not an alcoholic or which one do you like better? It's a blind taste test. And so that has become a fun game.

I like that. Do people sometimes- Nobody else does. Yeah. Do sometimes people find that they actually prefer the no alcohol versions without knowing?

Yeah. Interesting. I do. I mean- Yeah.

That is interesting. Yeah. So just tell me a bit more then about just going back to journalism and the culture of alcohol. It's really the focus for this podcast is really about alcohol in the workplace. So what's it been like for you in your career, going from being someone who was joining in with the drinking through to being someone who perhaps is the one who's saying no?

It's definitely been an interesting evolution. I think at this point, now that it's been eight years since my first dry January, people aren't going to poke fun or try to convince me to drink. But at first, I think it was really shocking to people. They really identified me, and I self-identified as somebody who was up on the latest beverage trends in the alcohol space. And I think just conquering that change of identity was interesting in itself. I think a little shocking for some people. And I've definitely become very committed to make making spaces more inclusive in regards to beverage. Because I think, especially in New York, and a lot of large cities, when you go to a restaurant, there's an expectation that they will have a vegetarian option, even perhaps a vegan option or something gluten-free. And I think it's so important to have non-alcoholic beverages on the menu, but especially at work events, too. This is how people spend most of their time and they want to feel included and part of the bigger picture.

Yeah, I know. It's such a small change to make as well. Like you say, well, in England, there's about 10 % of people are vegetarian and about 2 to 3 % are vegan. And every event you go to is catered for those people. There's about 10 % of a gluten free as well. They're all catered for what you don't drink. Oh, we might be able to scrap around in the back and find you a bit of warm orange juice, but that's 25 % of Gen Z, and it's 20 % overall of the whole population. And just think, I'm fed up of this. I'm giving sober people a voice. Or even They don't even have to be sober. They might just be not drinking today to say this is just not good enough. So all for that.

I agree. I ran the New York Marathon in November. Oh, Amazing. Thank you. It was my first marathon. And I've said... And I tried to train for other half marathons, and marathons in the past, but I would always get injured or I'd feel So sick. And obviously, it was when I was drinking more. But I've said time and time again, if I had been drinking during my training, it would have never happened.

Yeah.

Because even if you're going for a run the next morning, I mean, It doesn't matter why. It's just a matter of having those options available.

It's all about choice, isn't it? What else do you think employers should be doing differently in this space?

I think it's so interesting. I think that there's so many networking and holiday parties that are alcohol-centric when they could be focused on other ways to bond. And it doesn't have to be something over the top or crazy. It could be something as silly and fun as going bowling or having another hands-on activity that just doesn't make alcohol the main event, the main. And it's interesting to me because I know in the US, even pre-pandemic, pre-inflation, people will call it a work, obviously, if they're hung over. But I remember there's a I think it was in 2010, actually. So this is a long time ago. It, alcohol was causing American taxpayers, I think, I want to say a quarter trillion dollars.

Could be, yeah. Something like that.

Yeah, in Texas because of alcohol related accidents.

It's insane, isn't it? It's crazy. Well, 40, 40, 40 % workplace accidents involve alcohol or drugs. I mean, yeah. Is that why? And 50 % of sexual harassment claims involve alcohol. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, how often do you see that as well? We were recording this in December in peak Christmas due season. So I wonder how many people are listening who are probably dealing with some sexual harassment claims actually right now. And it's just not fun, is it? I mean, it's not fun for anyone. And the money, I mean, for a business, how much could you save if you didn't have any grievances after the Christmas party?

Oh, of course. All around. I think there's a statistic also that is mentioned in my book that the average person in the UK spends two years of their life alone.

Wow. That's crazy.

And if that is somebody who is 18 or over, you know that they likely have a job And that is affecting their work productivity.

Yeah, wow. That's an insane figure. That makes me feel quite physically sick and tired just thinking about it.

You could earn a graduate degree in that time or have two children. There are so many other productive things.

This is why people who don't drink just get so much done. People are always saying to me, How did you get so much done? I'm like, Well, I don't drink, so there's that.

It's fantastic.

Tell me a bit more about the dry challenge then. I'm guessing that I know what the dry challenge is, but tell us about it.

It's really a judgment-free guide. It is really great for first-timers who have no idea what they're getting themselves into. And it's really all the advice the the tips, the tricks, all the stuff that I learned along the way without any guide or even an idea of what I was doing. So it was written a few years after my first time and my second time and my third time. But it definitely still has such great information and recipes. And it really, I think, is eye-opening to a lot of people. I've gotten a lot of messages over the years that were very touching, and people are excited. It's a very fun and colourful book. It's not preachy. It's really non-judgmental. If you happen to partake in a dry month and you have a drink, I say, call it a one drink January or a damn January and continue on. It doesn't have to be necessarily.

Yeah, there is a real difficulty isn't, though, if when you set yourself a challenge and then something happens and you have a slip up, and it's so easy then to just press the fuck it button and say, well, that's it, it's finished, can't do it anymore. It's all over. Might as well have 10 drinks. And it's not helpful to think in those black and white terms, because I know this is about stopping for a period of time and then perhaps going back to alcohol. But even for people who are looking to stop drinking permanently, I don't know anybody who is sober long term who just stopped one day and never started again. Everybody has some slip up, some... Well, sometimes they call it a relapse. I think that's a bit unhelpful, to be honest. But I just think these lapses are for learning. And you can guarantee you feel like shit. You'll have a hand over and you just won't feel good about it without self-flagellation and blame and all of that. I think you're dead right about that. It is just about you still got so many benefits from the time that you've not drunk and you've still got so many future benefits to have from all the times you're not going to drink.

So carry on.

Yes. There's so much research that shows that even taking a month off is helpful, and so really any amount of time off is helpful. And I think it's so interesting you brought up all of these points of shame that are internalised and maybe a little bit externalised, too. But at the end of the day, I think it's so important for people to be kind to themselves because alcohol really is everywhere. It's quite unavoidable. Even if you are doing your best to avoid it, it is at sports games, it is at birthday parties, it is on TV in every commercial break. So it's very hard. And I think people need to acknowledge that as well.

No, I totally agree. I think we don't allow any other addictive substances to be marketed in this way. And it is an addictive substance and it is glamourised. And that's just a fact. That's how it is. I mean, alcohol industry can afford to employ the absolute top of the top marketeers. They really do sell that dream. And I have never seen an alcohol advert with a person with a hangover on it. So they're not telling the full story, are they? So of course, of course, we sometimes have slip-ups, and that is absolutely okay. And there's no judgement. The thing to do is learn from it and move on. So, yeah, I love it. It sounds great. So how can you get hold of the dry challenge Where can we find it?

You can buy it on Amazon. Oh, brilliant. Also, if you speak German. There is a German translation.

Not for me, but you know.

Just in case, or if you're learning on dual video and you want to try that out. I'm just being silly. But yeah, you can find it online. Most major bookstores, and yes, definitely.

Oh, that's fantastic. And what about the rest of your journalism work? Where can we catch up with you these days?

You I can read my work in the New York Times, and Well and Good is another one. If you do it with Google, I'm in many places at once.

So there's always something new. Oh, wonderful. There's always something new. Yeah. Fantastic. That's Good to know. Right, I'm going to have to start sending you my press releases now. I wish I'd never contacted Janet. She's just constantly asking me to write about her. Oh, that's fantastic. So before we wrap up, I need I'll ask you my regular question, which is, what is your favourite book and why?

So my favourite book is, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieve. It is written by a therapist and her experience in therapy. And I think it is just so well written and has such strong emotion. And you feel like you really know these characters And it's really hard to put down. So I highly recommend it if you have not.

Oh, that sounds great. I love it. That sounds right up my street, actually. So, yeah, I will add it to my ever-growing reading this. I'm looking that way because I've got a huge, huge pile of books on my bedside table, and it's honestly going to topple over and brain me in the night one night. But I will add it to my list. So thank you. Thank you so much, Hilary, for being guest.

Thank you. So nice meeting you.

Well, thank you, Hilary. It was great to have you on as a guest, and that book you can buy online, all the usual places. It's called The Dry Challenge Published by Harper Collins. So if that sounds like something that would be helpful for you, get that in your basket. So just before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you, if you are listening and you're an HR, wellbeing or inclusion and diversity professional, We have a series of webinars running this year on the first Friday of each calendar month. So if you head over to choose sunrise. Co. Uk, head to the accreditation section, the bit that's aimed at businesses. You can sign up for our events on there. There's a big yellow button that says, join us for an event. And there's a list of them under there. So it'd be great to see you at one of our upcoming webinars. And if anyone out there is listening who is a sober entrepreneur, you You may be interested to know that our Sober Business Networking Group is very rapidly growing, and we have just had a fantastic business planning day in Manchester. It was such a lovely meetup, really warm, welcoming, friendly group of people.

And we have so many commitments now that we've made to each other about how we're going to help each other to grow and support our businesses. So we're going to be doing that again in April. We're going to be meeting in the forest of Dean at the hotel that belongs to one of our members, which is quite exciting. We don't have a date yet, so TBC. But if you check our website, if you go to the Sober Business Networking part of the website, you can find details on that as soon as they're published. And if you just fancy joining us for our online Zoom networking or getting a listing in our directory, head to soberbusinessnetwork. Co. Uk and join us on there. It'd be great to see you in the group.

Thanks so much for listening.

Bye bye.

If you'd like to learn more about creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz, visit choosunrise. Co. Uk and head to the HR services page. Let's end the stigma because nobody should feel afraid to ask for help with alcohol use.