Podcast Transcript - Episode 0016 - Work Hard, Play Hard Culture with Sophie Ryan

Welcome to the professional drinkers podcast brought to you by choosesunrise.co.uk. I'm Janet Hadley and this is for you if you're an HR professional, a business owner or a leader who'd like to explore the drinking culture in your workplace. I'll bring you lived experience stories, expert views and tips for creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz. Hello and welcome back to the professional drinkers podcast. I hope you all well and enjoying a bit of cooler weather this week as we head into what feels like the winter now. If you're in the UK, the weather has changed so dramatically over the past couple of weeks. It's unbelievable. This week we went past the 100 days till Christmas, I noticed. I had a couple of emails in the inbox telling me it's 100 days till Christmas, and just thought, Oh, my goodness, how can that possibly be? Every year, I'm so determined to be one of those organised people who's done all their shopping and got all their presents and had them all wrapped by the end of October or something. I just know deep down in my heart that that's not going to happen again.

And yes, the silly season will soon be upon us and all of the drinking that comes with it. Ironically, what I would actually say about the next 100 days until Christmas or however many it is now, is that, ironically, it's probably one of the best times possible to do the 101 days to sober, because you are going to miss so much alcohol in that time. It's going to be the most beneficial time that you could possibly do it. I know that the thought of Christmas without alcohol, for some people, will feel unbelievably uncomfortable. But if you can do Christmas, you can do absolutely anything, and it's a brilliant, brilliant challenge. And what it will do is it will give your brain lots and lots of data to say, I had a really good time without alcohol. It's a very interesting time to do it. And also you can start with Sober October, which is just around the corner, only 10 days away. And you won't feel so alone because lots and lots of people will be doing Sober October with you. And if you do want to do Sober October, I would really encourage you to follow me on LinkedIn because I'm going to be sharing 30 tips over 30 days on LinkedIn.

I'm going to be sharing a short video each day with a tip on making the most of your alcohol-free 30 days and helping you to keep on track, so look out for that. What else is going on? So there's been quite a bit of news kicking around over the last couple of weeks about alcohol labelling, which is really interesting. It sparked quite a debate across the EU, and particularly in the wine industry. I do have some sympathy because what's happening is Ireland have basically submitted their first proposal now for putting health warnings on wine, which I wholeheartedly support because at the end of the day, it's a Grade 1 carcinogenic and it doesn't carry any restrictions or labelling. There's very few restrictions on advertising compared to other products that kill you, like cigarettes. Ireland, I think, are being really quite progressive in looking at this and deciding to do something about it and to add these warning labels on. But obviously, because of the free trade agreements across Europe, that's going to make things really, really difficult and complex. Either you put labels on everywhere, or you don't put them on anywhere, or you have a different set of stock that's for Ireland, which adds complexity into supply chains, etc, etc.

It is for those reasons, really sparking a lot of debate. I just think good on you, Ireland, for raising, being the first to stick your head above the parapet and starting the debate, and who knows where it'll end up. My prediction? I am going to say that I genuinely believe that whatever happens in this next couple of years, 20 years' time, 30 years' time, we're going to see alcohol treated in a very similar way to how we see cigarettes treated today. Removing a lot of the ability of the alcohol giants to market the products and basically removing some of the branding, removing some of the appeal from the products, and basically stopping alcohol being glamourised as it is at the moment. But we shall see. I could be wrong about that. We shall see. Closer to home, new news. I have launched a new service, which is exciting. I've launched a new sober business network, which aims to connect sober and sober curious business owners from all over the world, actually, to help support each other, to network and to grow our businesses together without the booze. And it's really aimed at anyone who is fed up of boozy networking and having to mingle with people who are getting more and more drunk as the evening goes on and actually just want to network without the booze.

So our first 50 founding members are now in and our next 50, I'm going to be putting an offer onto the website. We're going to be offering that for just £20 a year for Life, which is a bargain. So if you fancy joining us, now is a very good time to do it. So the next 50 people who join will be £20 a year every year for Life. And in exchange for the 20 quid, you get a monthly online Zoom networking meeting where you can meet other people in the network. You'll get to chat with everybody on our online digital chat platform. And you will get to... If you're in the UK, you will get a discount on coming to display at our annual exhibition. And you'll also get an opportunity to go in our Sober business directory, which is not yet built, but when it is, you will get an opportunity to go into that. So it is an absolute bargain. What else is going on? We've got lots of events coming up. We're doing a webinar on the third of October with Michelle Smith, who is the founder of the National Grief and bereavement Association.

We're going to be exploring the topic of alcohol and grief in the workplace and looking at what employers can do to better understand, really, this complex relationship between alcohol and grief and to support people who've had a loss and to be more aware of some of the issues that they might be facing and how to better support them. That's online on the third of October, so you can sign up for that on my website, choose Sunrise. Co. Uk, and hit the yellow button for the events. Then if you're in Leeds, I've got two events coming up. So 11th of October is a live event at Transition Partners, who are our... They are on the cusp of becoming our very first alcoholSafe Workplace, which is exciting. This live event is going to be a tea total extravaganza for HR, wellbeing, diversity and inclusion professionals, business owners and leaders, or anyone who feels like they would like to create an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz, as we say. That's 11th of October, 5:00 to 7:00, free of charge, of course, in Leeds. Then the following week, on the 18th of October, we have our very first Sober Business Network meetup, which is going to be at the Functional Drinks Club in Otly, which is super exciting.

I don't know anywhere else that's got a kombucha on tap. If there is, please write in and tell me because I want to visit. But I'm super excited that that's on the doorstep, and I'm really looking forward to meeting some of our Sobe business owners there. So onto the guest. So, yes, Sophie Ryan is the founder of Interactive VA-Limited, so a virtual assistant agency. Sophie has won a few awards recently, actually, since this was recorded. I know Sophie is certainly a finalist for the Best Women in Business Awards of 2023, which is very, very exciting. She offers... Obviously, she offers VA agency services, but also physical health and mental health offerings to creative business owners as well, which is a bit of a, well, very much a point of difference versus a lot of the agencies. Sophie and I have a quite a similar corporate background, both working in buying. She worked for Tesco, I worked for Asda, really similar actually, in having spent quite a lot of time out in Hong Kong and China on buying trips and experiencing some of that work hard, play hard culture. So yeah, I think you'll enjoy this one.

Give it a listen. Thanks, Sophie. So my guest this week is Sophie Ryan. Sophie is from the Interactive Media Services, which is an established VA agency which she owns, and she works with creative professionals to offer VA services. So Sophie, do you want to tell us a little bit more about that before we start?

I will do, thank you. Thank you for having me. So just to give you a bit of a whistle-stop tour of my background. So I went to London College of Fashion and did a fashion marketing degree, and I always thought I wanted to be a buyer. So after that, I went and worked for Arcadian, Mothercare and Tesco, so very corporate background. And after having our first child, I just retrained to be a bookkeeper, and more recently the VA worked to support, like you say, the creative professionals across all different industries, like retailers, property developers, brand consultancy firms, film and TV, and we've got a core team of associates on board as well who are also ex-corporate and ex-retail, and we really do to support anybody with their admin VA needs. But in addition to that, also we offer some wellbeing services as well, so that we have a more holistic, well-bounded approach to offering them the business, health support that they need, but also some mind, physical and wellbeing support as well. So it's more of a holistic service for our clients.

Yeah, I noticed that when I was checking out your website, I think that's a really interesting angle, actually, because like you, I'm from the corporate world, and I worked as a buyer for 20 something years, quite a lot. And I don't think I've really looked after my wellbeing until much more recently. It's something that I've only ever really considered quite a lot later in life. Actually, really since I stopped drinking. So I'd be interested in why you decided to bring that into the offer. What sparked that.

For you? Yes, I think there's definitely, like you say, more of a mind shift with everybody, having more focus. Obviously, COVID's definitely had a big part to play on that, as we all know. It's not to say that it wasn't there, obviously. People obviously are mindful of their health and their wellbeing, but it's obviously become much more front of mind nowadays. And from what we could see when we've been supporting our clients is, they come to us when they feel stressed and anxious and overwhelmed, and that's generally with their business support that they need. But obviously with that comes obviously the mental and the physical support that they need with things. And for me personally, I would go out and do a run, and you burn loads of energy, you clear your head, and you come back and you're more productive. There's a lot to be said about sitting at your desk all day, not moving, not getting the blood circulation going around. So by being more physically active, it definitely helps you to refocus and prioritise then throughout the day. So that's from a physical stance point. But from a mental and a more of a mindset side of things, we definitely wanted to bring in the wellness and the yoga to help our clients obviously have that side of things as well as the mental health support and the physical health support as well, so that we can look after their business needs, but they're also their physical and their mental wellbeing needs as well, so that they've got that holistic service from us.

And at the end of the day, if they feel that they can have that support and clock off, and then they can go home and have a better work-life balance, then isn't that surely helping our clients in the bigger picture rather than just their business, and then they're still going home completely stressed, because they are up against a deadline or whatever it might be. So by offering that, that we thought that that would help, obviously help supplement and support a better work-life balance.

As well. Yeah, because I think so many of us think that if we step out of the corporate world, then they'll be less stressed. But the reality of running a business is fairly stressful.

I'd say. Oh, completely. Yes, exactly. There's absolutely so many pros and cons, obviously, aren't there? Yeah, there really are. And obviously everybody, it will be to everybody. But being a business owner, you need to wear all of these different hats. You need to wear your marketing hat, your customer service, your production, your operations, all these different hats that you have to wear as a business owner. So it's equally can be stressful. So by offering the additional services of the wellbeing strategies that we offer our clients, we felt that that was... It sets us apart from other VA agencies, number one, and number two, it's just offering that more holistic, well-rounded service like.

Matt mentioned. Yeah, I think it's brilliant. I think it's a great angle. Absolutely perfect. So just looking back then on your working life, I'm really interested to hear about what the workplace drinking culture has been like at some of these places that you've worked. So can you tell us a bit more about that?

Okay. So I think probably the retailer with the biggest drinking culture was probably Tesco's. Interesting, yeah. Not necessarily for any particular reason, other than I had certainly noticed my time there that everybody was generally much younger, whereas when I was at Arcadian and Mothercare, everybody was older and more settled within their personal lives. So there wasn't necessarily as much drinking involved. Don't get me wrong, they're still was, and there were still loads of social events, but it was definitely more prominent in Tesco because it was just a young organisation, generally speaking, obviously. And I know you talked from my experience within my department at Tesco. Obviously, Tesco is a massive conglomerate, and I'm obviously only talking from.

My department. Yeah, from your head office, your particular buying team, and that particular era as well, which I was going to ask when was that?

Oh, goodness. So how.

Long ago- I'm sorry, I don't want to age you.

So ex-corporate, I left that industry... When my first was bored, so about nine years ago. So yes, it's completely shifted since then, I'm sure.

Yeah. Well, who knows? Who knows? We'll have to find someone who's worked there more recently to tell us that. And how did that manifest itself then? So what drove that culture, do you think? I don't think.

There was anything specifically. It was more a case of possibly when we did lots of the farries, buying trips and the sourcing trips, with that comes obviously a great deal of work, but then a great deal of play as well. So it's not all work and no play. There's definitely lots of that as well in the evenings. And it wasn't... I didn't feel pressured or anything, but equally, you certainly did feel that if you weren't going out to engage and interact on the social side of things when we were on all these sourcing trips, you certainly did feel that you weren't raising your profile. That's interesting. You weren't being seen. So there was an element of feeling like you needed to go out and be present and visible. But that's not to say that they pushed and made you feel like I needed to drink, but there was certainly the pressure of, You need to go out and be seen.

Yeah, that's interesting. And you need to go out and be seen, and you need to raise your profile in order to what?

Probably just Excel within the business. I certainly felt that. So again, there was no pressure around drinking specifically, but it was very much... I mean, look, you're ex-corporate as well. It was basically, I think looking back now, and it's very good to be able to look back, because when you're in the moment, you don't necessarily see it for what it is. But looking back now, I can see that a lot of the deals were actually done not in the boardroom. They were all done in the evenings, when you're out and about with suppliers, or directors, or whatever it might be. So the deals are actually done not in the boardroom. They're just finalised in the.

Boardroom.

The fine details.

Yeah, I agree.

But again, there was no pressure around drink, but it was definitely pressure around raising your profile and that type of stuff. And then if you weren't... And if you didn't go out and do that, then the next day they'd all be talking about it, you weren't front of mind, and then eventually you'd become further and further down the list, and just not so visible within your organisation.

Yeah, and I guess... I mean, Ispect that there's a lot of people who that resonates with. Even today in the corporate world, there are industries where, as you say, the deals are not really done in the boardroom, they're done out and about. I think that raises a few issues for me around, what is it like to be a working mum who can't necessarily go to those events? What is it like for people who don't drink for whatever reason, whether they're in recovery or whether they don't drink for religious reasons, what impact does that have on the diversity of the workforce and who gets promoted? Is it one of the.

Contributing factors? I do think I do look back, and I'm very fortunate that when we had our first, I didn't have to go back to work. I chose to have the first few years off, obviously to raise Ava, but I can imagine going back to a corporate role after having your first born is challenging. It's hard, it's tough. And like you say, in order to even have time off to go to a doctor's appointment with your child, let alone having to go and be social with clients or supplies or whatever it might be, there's a ton of pressure. Although I do feel that possibly from what I've heard with other companies recently, that employers have become a bit more understanding around this in and especially I think since COVID that it has taught us all that we are people outside of the office, we have lives outside of the office. So I do think there has been a shift, and employers are becoming more aware of this, and obviously that's a big conversation around flexible working and everything. But for once, employees actually have more power than the employers. Employers are dragging the employees back into the office.

But.

That's a different conversation.

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I think you're right. I think COVID has definitely had a really big impact on this. So just going back to that idea of going back into the workplace after having a baby. I had triplets when I was 27, and I went back to work after one year. I went back part-time, which at the time I felt very lucky to be allowed to work part-time. There weren't any other part-time buyers in the organisation.

Definitely.

There's no part-time buyers. Well, it's not a part-time job, which is the problem. Actually, it nearly drove me into a living early grave trying to do a full-time job in part-time hours and look after triplets. It's not sustainable. It's really not. And I don't know how I survived it now when I look back, to be honest. It was a lot of pressure, and I can remember crying a lot and feeling like I wasn't doing a very good job at work, and I wasn't being a very good mom. And yeah, I really did struggle, actually. And I think, although I wouldn't say it was specifically the alcohol culture, it was a big contribute factor, because I'd been like the party girl who was out the latest, drank the most, drank pints of beer and could drink as much as any man. And that 90s LADEC culture, I was the epitome of that, really. And then I couldn't be that person anymore because I was a mum and I had to go home. And I can remember seeing other people who were similar to me, who didn't have children, getting promoted ahead of me when I was part-time.

And I was actually told that I would be offered a promotion if I came... I was basically offered a promotion if I came back full-time, and I just couldn't do it because having three babies is- No, of course not. I just couldn't do it. And I wanted to be at home a couple of days, but it was a tough time. It was a tough time. And that's hard though.

As well, for them to turn around and say, you basically will get promoted if you come in, and yet you've just had three tiny babies.

Yeah, it was. I don't know if that had happened now, and I'm not sure. I think it's skirting on the boundaries of employment law, to be honest, I really do. I think, yeah, I look back on it and think I wish I'd stood up for myself a bit better, or got some legal advice, but there was no way I had the capacity to even think about that. I just... Yeah, yeah, it would just... It would just... It would just making me feel quite sad.

Thinking back on it. It is hard though, it is hard when you say having a new parent, a new mom, and like you say, you haven't got the mental capacity to necessarily push that and fight that case. You need someone fighting the corner for you.

You do. You really do. And I think looking back, what would have helped me, and it'd be interesting to see what you think about this, but you're talking about this bringing the wellbeing into the workplace. Like, if I could have gone to a yoga class at lunchtime or something like that, I think that would have really helped me because I didn't have capacity for that self-care outside of working hours. And also from a social point of view in the workplace, there was nothing, literally nothing that I could go to, to socialise with teammates or to raise my profile, like you say, with the big bosses. It was all down the pub on Fridays, and I didn't work Fridays, so I never ever joined in with any of that stuff. And I can't necessarily prove it, but I really do believe that that's a contributor factor to me not being able to get that next step up the career ladder for... It was a long time, a long, long time later. Actually, I was back pretty much full-time back before it happened, so yeah.

Of course, and like you say, if that's all happening on a Friday and you don't work Fridays, then you're definitely not going to be front of mind, and you'll just be seen as the part-timer with no commitment, which is really a shame. And it does frustrate me that some companies just can't see the bigger picture and think, Well, you might have been at work for 10 years with that organisation before you had children. So you have got some loyalty there, and they just see it as the here and now. And again, this could be a huge generalisation, but that is the case, and obviously certainly it was with you.

Yeah, absolutely. I personally do think that sobriety is a big inclusion issue for employers today, and as more and more people are choosing not to drink, the statistics are really clear on that, and there's more and more younger people who are entering the workforce who are not drinking. There's real case for change, I think, in workplace culture, and that how do you socialise together? How do you team build together? And how do you be truly inclusive in the workplace?

Yeah.

So- There is definitely, like you say, a big shift with people coming into industries nowadays with a healthy approach to their lifestyle, like you said, it used to be all around drink, or smoking, or whatever it might be. My parents used to be in advertising, and they would be off at the pub at 12 o'clock in the afternoon for lunch, and then we go back to work.

It was just completely different. Yeah, same in banking and in some.

Law firms. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. But nowadays, the younger generation coming into work, measuring their steps, measuring their heart rate, looking at their garments, looking at their calorie counting, all of this stuff. There has been a real healthy shift there.

But.

I think it will be a challenge then for employers to have a look at, like you say, about making it more inclusive and things. And I think where you've got things like flexible workplaces and things like that where you can promote more collaboration between businesses, and you can have those flexible workspaces, you can have some entertainment sections and all these different areas and things. There could be a piece around team building around activities and days out rather than historically when we were at work, and obviously in that environment it was evenings out, but there could be more things around team building around activities and being socially during the day rather than the evenings, which is historically when people used to obviously drink more.

Yeah, well, I've got a long list of suggestions for workplace nights out that is sober, inclusive. And I don't mean by that that alcohol isn't involved. I just mean that there's something else that's the main attraction. So one of my guests, Gilhyd, put it as decentralising alcohol from the social event. So it can still be there, but it isn't the only thing that we're doing. So if anyone wants a copy of that, then just feel free to drop me a note and I'll send it to you quite happily. So you can find my email address on my website. I just wanted to go back to your corporate days again from... I'm sorry, I was just trying to think of that. I'm just trying to think of the moment and just to think about what messages did you get from the top, like the senior management about what was or wasn't acceptable?

Well, like I said before, there wasn't necessarily any pressure specifically around drinking or anything, but there certainly was the pressure to be out, and to be seen, and to be visible. You certainly did feel the next day when you went into the office that if you weren't out the night before, and they'd all be talking about it and building that rapport, you certainly did feel that you were instantly out of the loop, and therefore not selected to do something, whatever it might be afterwards. And eventually, if that keeps happening on an ongoing basis, you certainly did feel like you weren't, like I've said, front of mind.

Yeah, yeah. So more of a stealthy deprioritisation.

Yeah, and it does depend.

And it does depend, I think, on the size of the organisation as well. I've worked at, like I said, three huge corporations there, two of which are bigger than the other, and it is very much... It's a numbers game. You are just a number on payroll, so Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand. And what do you think the role of employers is when it comes to alcohol culture?

That's a good question. I'm not too sure, really. What's your view on that one?

Well, I think that as we learn more about the links between alcohol and physical health, and the links between alcohol and mental health, I think we should take a leaf out of the Canadian government's book, actually. I don't know if you've seen, they've recently changed their government guidelines on drinking to reflect the latest research, which says that there is no healthy amount to drink. I think that the duty of care that employers have for their employees means that they should be creating an environment where it is okay to not drink. So I'm not saying that they have to stop all alcohol or workplace events. I'm saying that they should be promoting choice and that they should be making sure that people who are choosing not to drink are able to join in and not feel excluded. Yes, and respected. Yeah, and I think by normalising sobriety in the workplace, there's a real opportunity to reach a huge population of gray area drinkers. And what I mean by that is people who are drinking to dangerous levels, but they're not alcohol-dependent. But they're at risk of developing an alcohol dependency because of the amount they're drinking.

And this is the area that I found myself in, this gray area zone, and it only takes a bereavement, a loss, a trauma of some kind to tip you over into dependency quite quickly, or really starting to drink more than you're happy with quite quickly, which is again, my story. And I think there's a real lack of awareness about this in the workplace. So for me, I didn't have any sober role models at all in my life. And I think if somebody had come into my workplace as a sober role model and said, Actually, did you know that there are millions of people who are living their best lives without the booze, and they will welcome you with open arms if you choose to ditch the booze and come and join us, then I just think I might have done it a lot sooner because my preconceptions about what it meant to be sober, whether my life would be over, everything would be boring, I would never have any friends, and just catching sight of what alcohol-free life might look like in the workplace, I think is incredibly powerful, which is why Choose Sunrise exists, really.

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, and I do think like we've touched on already that organisations and companies are becoming more aware of this anyway. Like we've said, people are coming into the workplace having a much healthier mindset. So that definitely has been a shift, and now it's just a case, I suppose, of just continuing that. And like you say, it coming from the top as well, and not just people coming into industries, it has to come from the top as well. We are promoting that respect, and to acknowledge that everyone's got a right to choose whether to drink or not to drink, and that shouldn't be made fun of if that was something that you might be nervous about or whatever it might be, and to respect people's choices.

Yeah, the whole orange juice thing. So this annoys me. So if you're doing a champagne reception and the only alternative you've got to champagne is orange juice, then if you're newly sober, you might as well just stick a neon orange sticker on someone who's just feeling really vulnerable and self-conscious already. And they're standing there with an orange juice, and it's an invitation for every single person to go, Oh, you're not drinking. Why not? No, I know. And it's just it's... It's not. I just think it's such a small change to change, offer an alcohol-free champagne or Proseco, or whatever, and let those people just blend in. That is.

A small thing. Yes, no, I definitely think that's before, and so we've not mentioned it, but I'm not someone who's ever been dependent, but I am someone who generally just doesn't like alcohol. I've never have. I've done it in my younger days. I would go out and drink and all sorts, but I didn't necessarily enjoy it, and I don't necessarily need to drink to have fun. So generally for me, so it's nothing to do with dependency or anything like that, I just generally do not like being completely intoxicated. I have no idea what's going on. And that's not to say that I'm a control freak, I'm far from it, but I like to be aware of my surroundings, and when I'm not, I feel a bit, I suppose, vulnerable. So for me, I do like to go out, but I equally don't want all the questions. Oh, why aren't you drinking? What's wrong with you? Nothing's wrong with me, actually. I just don't like a drink, and I want to actually wake up the next day without a headache and to enjoy the day with my children, simple as that. The life is so much more fulfilling when you can actually go out and enjoy the weekend rather than being in bed completely...

Obviously, I'm much older, and all of that type of stuff as well comes into it, I'm sure. But yes, no, going back to your Orange juice point, there definitely needs to be something around, I don't know, like you say, alcohol-free Proseco or whatever it might be, where you say you can blend in without people looking... It's just inviting questions, isn't it?

Yeah. So one of the things that I've been doing with one of the clients that I work with is relooking at the alcohol policy, and one of the clauses that we've included is that there will be respectful alcohol-free options at all the events, and I really like the way that they phrase that, like respectful. So it's a drinks matching policy. So if we're serving beer, we'll have an alcohol-free beer. If we're serving Proseco, we'll have an alcohol-free Proceco. And it's a little bit like catering for vegan, vegetarians, people who are gluten-free, like it should just be part of that same thinking, and yet it isn't. So there's, it isn't yet, the world is changing. Watch this space. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think this whole having to make an excuse not to drink, where do you think that comes from? What's your theory on it? Why do people cross-question you?

Well, I think there's always an element of people having to be accepted by others, having to blend in, like you say. And if you are someone who's recently decided that you don't want to drink to then go to a social environment, even if it's with your own friends, let alone nothing to do with colleagues, even your own friends can be turn around to you say, Oh, you're so boring. Why aren't you doing whatever? So there's definitely just a pressure around fitting and blending in with everybody else. In a natural fact, you should just respect everybody's decisions. But it's just been ingrained in us for so long that we just feel this pressure whenever anybody comes up to us that we need to blend in with everybody else, which is a shame. But it's just a cultural thing, isn't it? Which I'm sure is shifting.

Yeah. Well, for me, the thought of telling people that I wasn't drinking is one of the major things that held me back from getting the help that I needed. And I think because I'd been such a big drinker, I knew it was going to be obvious that the reason I wasn't drinking was because I got myself into trouble with alcohol, like some irresponsible person. And I felt like it was all about me, and I felt really ashamed that I couldn't control my alcohol use, and I felt like I was going to be judged and people would think I was an alcoholic.

I was just about to say that, definitely a huge piece of judgement. I've got people in my life who are dependent on it, or have been, and yeah, definitely there's a huge piece of judgement.

As well. Yeah, and that stigma is always going to be there until we can educate. And this is another of the answer that I would give you as to where I think employers have got a role to play here, is the workplace is just the best place for anti-stigma activities to happen because, let's look at what's happened with mental health over the last 10 years. Employers have been doing such a brilliant job of bringing this to the forefront. We've got menopause awareness. We've got all kinds of taboo topics being tackled in the workplace. And I think that alcohol can absolutely go on that journey. And the more that people talk openly about their recovery, the more people will realise that actually it could happen to anyone and-.

Well, yes, I was just about to say that actually, about being open. If we'd have had this conversation, I don't know, let's say, 10 years ago or something, there's no way I'd have said, Oh, well, there's people in my life who are dependent. Because again, I don't want them to feel like they're being judged. So, for instance, my mom used to be a drinker, and she stopped 10 years ago. I'm absolutely great. But if you'd asked me this conversation 10 years ago, there's no way I would have dived old that my mom used to be a drinker. Nowup now, I feel very comfortable that I can talk about it, because there is this dialogue nowadays of people actually celebrating people who have turned that corner and have decided to be open about it, and have decided not to go down that path for whatever reason. And of course, each person's reason not to do it is personal and unique to them, and it's their story to tell. So I'm not going to sit here and start talking about everybody's stories that I know of. Like I said, it's their story to tell. But there's a lot more acknowledgement now...

There are more people praising others for choosing to be sober. So there has definitely been a positive shift, which is good, and hopefully it can only ever go.

Upwards now. Yeah, I agree. I think a corner has been turned, and I don't know if it's partly because I've immersed myself in the sober community, but there just seems to be sober people everywhere now. Maybe I just noticed them all, but I genuinely didn't notice them when I was drinking, and I think it does create a bit of a blind spot. But more and more people are recovering out loud and being proud about it.

And that's the.

To me. Yeah, and it's great. It's great because that is the beginnings of chipping away at that older stigma of people are imagining that all alcoholics are just irresponsible flaky dropouts who sit on park benches and drink vodka in the mornings, like that's not really what alcoholics look like. They look like me. They hold down good jobs and they raise children and they pay the mortgage and they go and drink too much. That happens all the time. Yeah, I completely agree.

That's functioning alcoholics, they're not necessarily people like you say, on park benches with no drugs and no homes. That's a huge generalisation, which.

Isn't accurate. Yeah. And I always say to people, You do not have to wake up in a skip to ask for help, okay? Get some help before things get to that point. And I love... I mean, it's the most rewarding work you could ever do to be helping people in that grey area. So someone actually said to me yesterday, Janet, I think you might have saved my life. And I said, Look, I think you're being a bit melodramatic. But what testimonial is that? Wow. I know, I'm reflecting on it afterwards, and I was just like, I can't believe... Well, isn't that just amazing that someone feels like that about me setting up a sober support group in the workplace?

I was going to say like a.

Support network, definitely. Yeah, I set up a sober support network in the workplace, and this is just someone who joined, came along to a few meetings, decided to stop drinking, emails me regularly. We have catch-ups outside of the meetings. Just check in, see how he's doing. Yeah, just.

Check-ins, absolutely. It's just- That can be all it can take to turn a day that's been a nightmare for somebody, a stressful, anxious day for whatever reasons. All it can take is that one conversation, and they can see the rest of the day with more positivity.

Yeah, and they're having this regular drip feed every month. So in the meetups that we have, we have a lived experience speaker every month who comes and shares their story, and they get to ask questions, and How did you deal with this? How did you deal with that? And it just gives them this constant inspiration, I guess, to say, Oh, well, actually, other people can do it. Maybe I can do it too, and look how much happier they are for having stopped. Maybe I could be happier too. And that's what I mean, really, about catching sight of what life might be like without the booze. If every employer had a programme like that, we could reduce so much alcohol harm. Let's change the world, come on.

Come on then. Well, I was just about to ask you, actually, what types of companies are you approaching with this programme?

So at the moment, I've got a couple of big corporates, and I've just put together a programme for SMEs because I think there's a real opportunity there, and I'm doing that on a pay-per-seat basis rather than a fixed fee for the company, and it'll be a much lower cost because obviously the groups will be mixed between different companies, so it wouldn't be one specific for that company. Actually, I think that might work really well as well because there'll be a broader range of people. I've not actually launched it yet, but it's going to be launching probably around mid-March, I would say, and yeah, I'm partnering with a couple of small HR agencies to help get the word out about that. So yeah, watch this space. But if you are interested and you're listening- No, that.

Would be interesting, the SME one.

Yeah, you know.

And it's just about educating them around, like you say, like a sober free workplace, and then educating them like I'm doing with the mindfulness and bringing in the physical and the mindfulness health strategies for clients as well. It's not just about the business. So it's educating like you're doing with the alcohol side of things, and it's educating people to have basically a more well-rounded, healthier work-life balance. So there could be something with the mindfulness and the yoga side of things as well. Yeah, there could. Yeah, absolutely. I think if you were to take alcohol away from people, they generally might then need to fix and focus on something else to fill that void initially for the very early months and years. And obviously as time goes on, hopefully it might turn to something else. But there perhaps needs to be something to focus the mind on. So it could be that they focus the minds on the mindfulness, yoga, meditation, that type of thing. We can put that up afterwards.

Yeah, definitely. Well, one thing I say to clients in my private coaching practice, so they'll book six or 12 sessions and we'll have one that's about alcohol and the rest of them are about why they were drinking in the first place. So it's not really about the alcohol, it's about what all these things come up that you've not dealt with. When you stop drinking, instead of just drink pushing them down, they all come up and you're like, Oh, I've got to be a proper adult now, deal with all this. And yeah, and it's really- It's.

All about.

Your why, isn't it? Yeah, and Holly Whitaker in her book, Quit Like a Woman, which is a brilliant book, she talks about creating a life that you don't need to escape from anymore. And I think you're right, you're adding in this mindfulness, this yoga, this, for me, piano playing, or whatever it is, this songstead thing that you need.

Whatever it is, yes. Like I say, it doesn't have to be yoga, it's just encouraging new healthy habits. So for me, it's not yoga, and just because I-Yeah. Just because our agency offers yoga, and mindfulness, and meditation, that's because it's a great thing that we can offer our clients virtually. Me personally, I'm on. So that doesn't necessarily suit me. But it's anything that creates that healthy habit so that you get out of that mindset of feeling fed up, and anxious, and stressed, because then that could be the slippery slope towards something else again. No, it's just getting out there and doing something positive with those endorphins, wherever it comes from. It's just so warm. Yeah.

Oh, sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think cold water swimming is one that's really growing, because there are so many sober people who go cold water swimming. So I started in Leeds, the place where I go at the moment, the water quality has failed the test, so I can't go at the moment. I was like, I don't want to know what's in there.

I'll definitely leave you doing that one. That's not for me. I like my baths absolutely boiling hot. That won't be for me.

But yes. I think it's the adrenaline rush. I think it's like after you stop drinking, you get like you want something that'll give you like a buzz. And the cold water swimming really does that for me. It really, really does. And it's so much healthier than neck in a bottle of wine. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to the spring when the Lido opens again, and I can go. I do prefer it in the chlorine. I'm not going to lie, I think the river is a little bit dodge, but I love it at the Lido, and it's in I'llcley, and it's beautiful surroundings as well, and it's just sometimes you can go there just as the sun's coming up, and it's like, Oh, life is just so good.

Yeah, and it just gives you that barge, like you say, you're starting the day afresh. And again, like we say, it could be anything, it's whatever works for you.

Yeah, perfect. Oh, thank you, Sophie. So I need to ask you my final question, which is, what is your favourite book and why?

Oh, okay. Well, at the moment I'm reading The Chint Paradox, I'm.

Halfway through it.

And I'm sure you know it. It's a very popular one at the moment, isn't it? I think I'm a bit late to the party with that one. But no, that's very interesting, it's very informative. But from a fiction stunt point, I think there was one called Her. I can't remember the author, so apologies, but it's a very gripping crime thriller, basically, and it's a little page turner.

Oh, I.

Those. So that was a good one. I'll have to dig out the author's name and I'll email.

You, but- Oh, yeah, I'll put it in the share notes. Yeah, I've read The Girl on the train, and then it just got me into that genre. And I flip between holistic, well-being, mindfulness books, and then either a true crime or a thriller.

Yeah, it depends what you want after a busy day with work. You might want something that isn't nice and lighthearted- Yes, exactly. -or something really gripping. You need a bit of escapism.

Don't you? Definitely, yeah.

The chin power docs is very good, but there's no escapism there.

Yeah, it's quite close to work as well isn't it? You're constantly learning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And I'm the same with my podcast, actually. I listen to things that are work-related, which can be about alcohol, or it might be about HR, or it might be about business. And then I'll just have to listen to a bit of true crime told in a gory, grizzly way. Yes, exactly. Yeah, brilliant. Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. So just before we sign off, do you want to just tell the listeners where they can find out more about the wonderful agency that you founded?

Absolutely. So we've got our website, it's interactivemedia services. Co. Uk. I'm on LinkedIn, so Sophie Ryan on LinkedIn, and that's it really, like you've touched on, Janet. It's a VA agency that's supporting creative professionals with business support, health and mindfulness and meditation and yoga as well, and that well-rounded client satisfaction is what we're aiming for with a holistic approach.

Perfect. Thank you so much, Sophie.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

You're very welcome. Well, thanks so much, Sophie, for being such a great guest. And you can find Sophie online. Sophie Ryan on LinkedIn, and Interactive VA is the name of her organisation, and links are in the show notes. So if you've got a story to tell about alcohol in the workplace, whether it's a shame shed of humiliation or a positive story about how your employer has helped you get back on your feet when you've run into trouble with the booze or anything in between, I'd love to hear from you and get you on the podcast. And if you are enjoying the podcast, please do take a minute to like, share, and review. It really helps us to reach more listeners. So thank you so, so much for listening and I'll see you next time. If you'd like to learn more about creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz, visit choosesubnights. Co. Uk and head to the HR services page. Let's end the stigma because nobody should feel afraid to ask for help with alcohol use.