Podcast Transcript - Episode 0021 - Alcohol and Mental Health with Dave Ramsay

Welcome to the Professional Drinkers podcast brought to you by choosesunrise.co.uk. I'm Janet Hadley and this is for you. If you're an HR professional, a business owner or a leader who'd like to explore the drinking culture in your workplace, I'll bring you lived experience, stories, expert views and tips for creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz. Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Professional Drinkers podcast. With me, Janet Hadley. And today we have a super guest, Dave Ramsey, who I'll be introducing in just a couple of minutes. But first, I just wanted to take a little moment as we head into Christmas party season, to ask all the HR managers who are listening, how are you feeling? You're nervous? How many grievances might you be dealing with this year? Have you got everything in place that you need to have in place ahead of the annual, well, aftermath? I guess it can be in some cases for some people out there. We've heard a few hairy tales on here of things that people have had to sweep up afterwards. So to make sure that that's not you this year, I have a few tips for you, starting off, really, with the fact that a lot of people who are working within your organisation do not actually want a big boozy Christmas due.

Obviously, some people do, but around 25% of people probably don't, and they will be your younger workers, as well as people who don't drink for faith reasons. But there's also a huge cross section of people who come from all different walks of life and backgrounds, people you might not expect, who are deciding to either stop drinking or to moderate their drinking. And of course, it's okay to have alcohol for people who want it, but it's so, so important this year, more than ever before, that you have respectful, alcohol free options at the event as well. And that does not mean orange juice, coke and lemonade. There's no excuse, with the abundance of choice in brands in the alcohol free sector, not to have something really special that makes those people feel catered for and welcome and included. And think about the glassware as well. Speak to the caterers if it's an outside company who are doing it. There are so many times when I've been given an alcohol free drink in a tumbler, whereas everyone else has a really fancy, beautifully shaped glass with trimmings and fruit and ice and sparklers or whatever. People who don't drink alcohol, they're not kids, they don't need to be patronised and they just want to have something that's special like everybody else is having.

So have a think about how you make sure that those people are properly catered for and it's not too late, depending on when you're doing. But it's probably not too late for you to get in touch with someone like Andy Me from the alcohol free drinks company and get yourself a pop up alcohol free bar for your work's due. He is doing a few up and down the country this year and some very progressive employers are hiring people like Andy to set up at their events and offer something truly magical for the alcohol free population. That's certainly an employer who I would want to work for. I'd also really urge you to cheque is your alcohol policy up to date? When's the last time you had a look at it? Is it in line with customer practise? Does it say things like alcohol is completely banned but you actually have a beer fridge in the office? I have literally seen that recently. Think about role modelling from the top of the organisation. Are the senior leaders on board with the alcohol policy? Does everybody understand what is expected from them? And also think about how microaggressions might be handled?

So if there is that kind of go on, just have one behaviour and oh, don't be so boring, how is that going to be called out and managed in the moment? Is it something that you might consider getting groups of leaders together just to give them a quick briefing or potentially doing something a little bit different? Perhaps getting some line manager training in about the impact of microaggressions? It's a really important part of normalising the choice not to drink and it will pay dividends in terms of how that 20% to 25% of the population in your workplace feel about working there. It will make a huge difference to them. There's also the drink driving issue to think about. As an employer there is a certain amount of responsibility on you to make sure that people have a way of getting home from these dues. There have been a number of incidents over the past few years that I've come across where people have been given free alcohol in the office straight after work, and people I mean, I know someone who's wrapped the car around a post in their work's car park. And you have to ask yourself, to what extent is that employer actually potentially liable?

Of course there's personal responsibility and at the end of the day when it comes to drink driving that sits with the driver. There are however, plenty of things that employers can do to make sure that they are putting some steps in place to minimise the risk of anyone doing that. And then finally, I believe that decentralising alcohol from some of these events will have a huge impact on the range of people who attend, the diversity of those people and how included some people in your organisation start to feel and therefore this will have a huge positive effect on your engagement scores. And even people who choose to drink are not everybody wants a big boozy party. Lots of people will have things to do the next day. It's a busy time of year and when you start to introduce different activities into your events, rather than just drinking, they become more memorable and fun. And actually, this could be the year where you have a Christmas party that everybody remembers. So if you're stuck for ideas, you can head to the Choose Sunrise website, which choose sunrise. Co UK. And just in the top right hand corner, there's a button there.

50 ideas for a sober, inclusive event. Download our guide and you will never be short of an idea for a workplace event ever again for the next 50 Christmases. So cheers to that. So, yeah, make sure you download the guide and if you do want any help at all, you know where I am.

Hello.

Choose sunrise. Co UK. Always happy to have a chat. So we're going to move on to introducing my guest for the day, Dave Ramsey. Dave is a really inspirational person who I've been in touch with via social media for quite a long time and only fairly recently have had sort of face to face conversations with. And he is such an advocate and an ambassador for men's mental health and he is doing heaps and heaps of work in the workplace to raise the profile of the types of issues that men face. And part of Dave's own story is about stopping drinking in order to preserve and protect and repair his own mental health. And he talks very openly about that. Employers are facing a rising tide of mental health issues in the workplace with record levels of long term absence. And the number one and number two reasons for that long term absence being depression and anxiety, both of which have pretty much a 50% to 55% overlap with dangerous drinking levels. So these issues are intrinsically linked and yet employers often have a bit of a blind spot for this. They will have lots of provision for mental health and nothing at all around alcohol use and not always making that connexion.

And I love the work that Dave's doing because he absolutely is making that connexion and he's making a big difference with the employers that he works with. So enjoy the interview with Dave.

Oh, fantastic. Thank you, Dave, so much for being my guest this week. Dave Ramsey, who I came across, because Dave is a real advocate of all things mental health, particularly in the workplace, and has done a lot of proactive work actually raising the profile of some of the issues that employers face around this thorny topic. So, hello, Dave, and welcome.

Afternoon. Thank you very much for having me.

You're so. So welcome. Shall we just start off by giving you the opportunity to just tell everyone a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Yeah, of course. So, Dave Ramsay, 41 year old dad of four, who you can probably just see behind me in the background there. So, yeah, I'm a dad to two boys, a girl and a lockdown. Surprise. So we had a little boy in lockdown. And for me, obviously, my world revolves around the kids, especially as they get older, there should be a limit on the number of clubs that they can join, surely. It's a nightmare, isn't it? But over the last two years or so, I'd say my real passion has been around kind of advocating all things mental health, especially around men's mental health. And I have been sober for 423 days now, for me. I know, yeah, absolutely amazing. So, yeah, I'm really pleased.

Yeah, that is fantastic, isn't it? How much better do you feel for it?

Loads. Absolutely loads better. And it's things that people may not even think about. I can concentrate better if I go out. I don't have a three day recovery period. My wife always used to say to me, if I was going out, she'd be like, all right, you're going out for a night, but we'll see you in, like, three days, because you're just out of the land of living. But, yeah, energy wise, I've probably been the fittest I've ever been in my life as well. So, yeah, I mean, the benefits have been absolutely huge. So, yeah, 423 days.

And this is perhaps a little bit of a loaded question, but did you expect things to get better or did you think, oh, it's just something I need to do?

Yeah, it's interesting, really, because it started for me well, I'd known for a while, really, that my relationship with alcohol wasn't a great one. I remember we were at a friend's wedding in August last year, and it was a particularly boozy affair, as a lot of weddings tend to be. I always tried to be like the ringleader, if you like, the person that was in the centre of attention. And I used it a lot, which I realised now, looking back, but I didn't realise at the time that I used it a lot in terms of self medication, in terms of not facing into some of my own challenges, and certainly helping me mask how I was feeling from a mental health point of view. And I remember we were at this wedding last year and I'd been drinking all day. I think I had a gin and tonic at about 09:00 in the morning. That started the day off. And I remember in the evening, my wife left the wedding, she left it for about an hour and for starters, I didn't realise. And then secondly, when she came back, she said, I know why you do it now.

And I said, what do you mean? She said, I know why you do the things you do shed. You do it for everybody else. You do it because you think that people expect you to be a certain way. She said, And I just can't stand and watch it anymore. And although I was incredibly under the influence, I remember that conversation as clear as anything. And I'm not going to say it haunted me. But it stayed with me after the wedding. And a couple of weeks later, I decided to just have a look at myself, really? And I read a book called The Alcohol Experiment, which is designed to it's 30 days. It's not designed to stop you drinking. My intention wasn't to stop drinking. My intention was just to understand why do I do the things that I do?

Yeah.

And actually, within three days, I remember walking into the kitchen, I said to my wife, I know I'm only three days in, but I don't think I'll drink again. And she went, okay, then, we'll see how that goes. I've been a bit more realistic now because saying I'll never drink again is a very big mountain that I feel you can only fail to climb. But so far, since I opened that book, 423 days in, I've got no inkling whatsoever to have a drink. Big self discovery.

Yeah. It is so interesting that you say that because when I work with clients, it's never really about the alcohol. So we have, like, maybe one session where we might talk about alcohol, but then we're talking really about life and what is it? Who are you? I think there's, like, for me, this huge wraparound between identity and alcohol where we see ourselves as a drinker. We see ourselves as, like you say, the party person, the centre of the ringleader. For me, I was the boss who was always taking their team out and getting them drunk and all the rest of it. And when you take that away, you just don't know who you are anymore. Like, if you've been drinking since you were 14 and you're 44. I just felt so lost. I did not know who I was. It took a little while to find my sober shoes, but then yes. It's so interesting, isn't it, how? I don't know about you, but for me, I feel as though I'm back to the person that I was before I started drinking. Even though I was only 14. It's almost like I had, like, a bit of growing up left to do that I hadn't done.

Yes, I stopped growing up, started drinking instead and then had to pick up where I left off before I could kind of carry on. Adulting. Yeah.

It is bizarre, isn't it? Certainly when you look back and I think about some of the things that I used to do and actually how far society has come as well. And you look at young people today and I think back and when we used to, as mates, camp in each other's back gardens and our parents would always give us a little case of those little French bottle beers.

Yeah.

Do you remember those? We used to have those. I used to play a lot of hockey when I was younger. And on a Saturday afternoon at halftime, we'd have a bottle of port that went round, really? Yeah, absolutely bizarre. But you do look and you think, wow, there's so much of my life that has got alcohol involved in it. Yeah, we grew up in the licenced trade, you know, we do have alcoholism that that runs in our family, you know, and actually, not last year, the year before we lost my cousin, who was just a couple of years older than me. I think there's a few things like that that then start to make you reflect on yourself and your own journey. And whilst I'd never considered myself to be someone that was alcohol dependent, I would get to the end of a day and go, I need a drink after that. And I did get to the stage where my drink at the end of a day would be free, pouring a gin into a glass and guesstimating where I thought a single was, but it was probably more like a treble, and the amount of tonic reduced drastically.

So you do start to have to take stock a little bit.

Yeah, I know. And it's so easy to find yourself in that place, isn't it? I mean, you and several million others, including myself, in that grey area, somewhere in between normal drinking and addiction basically a dependency. And no one goes from being like a normal, casual drinker to being dependent overnight. We have to go through that grey area, and that's the magic place where I think in the workplace, we can find people who absolutely struggling with addiction, well, struggling with basically grey area drinking. They're at risk of becoming addicted, and there's so much harm to be prevented by just reaching out to that group of people. And I'm a firm believer, and I know you are as well, Dave, that the workplace is a really good place to find those people to help them. I'm quite interested, actually, in your kind of working career. Were there ever any indications, like, was there ever anything in any of your workplace well being programmes or anything like that, that helped you, or was it just something that was never mentioned?

No, it was never mentioned. I think right back to when I first started working as a kind of 1516 year old lad in one of the big four supermarkets. The culture was very much after work, we go for a drink, and I remember when I went to uni and I was still working for a supermarket, at lunchtime, we'd go across the road, have lunch and a few beers, and we used to take it in turns. I probably shouldn't say that. Well, mind you, I stopped working for them a long time ago, but we used to take turns to clock each other back in and we'd have a couple of pints and stuff and you think, wow, looking back. And then as I grew up, so to speak, and I became a line manager at different times in different roles, you just couldn't believe that anyone would do it. And then you kind of sit and you think, actually I'm reflection, what are the things that I used to do? But no, I think it's fair to say that there's a big kind of workplace culture that the idea of team building or getting together or engaging with people should be done in a bar or a pub or a hotel or having an open bar, whatever it be.

And sadly, I think I can probably remember more horror stories from people being able to be in that position than kind of good stuff coming out of it. I never had anything and I've never really seen anything I know, obviously we're talking quite a lot at the moment, but I've never really seen anything that really focuses that lens on the workplace and the relationship with alcohol. And it's quite a scary thing. It's quite worrying.

Yeah. It's a bit of a blind spot, I think, for a lot of people who work in HR and well being. And actually, for me, I was exactly the same as a drinker. I would think of my own well being, I would do the healthy eating, I would go running, I would do yoga, I would do meditation, I'd do all the things, but then I'd still go home and drink half a bottle of wine every night. And it never honestly, it sounds so stupid, but it never occurred to me that the wine would be like, undoing all of that stuff and that it was effectively pointless. And it wasn't until I took the alcohol out of the equation that any of those things actually made any difference to my well being. And we teach people to do all these things, don't we, at work? And there's a lot of great intentions out there. And let's face it, I think employers, when we reflect back, I bet when you first started working, and when I first started working, you wouldn't have really been able to talk about mental health without it being quite stigmatised. And so we've already demonstrated that the workplace is a brilliant, brilliant way to destigmatize these taboo topics.

But for some reason, alcohol is still out there as being a little bit too difficult, I think, sometimes for employers. Why do you think that is?

It is a scary thought when you put it like that, because if I look back when I talk about mental health and my experiences with mental health, the reality is, until I started talking openly two years ago, I kind of hid my mental health challenges for over 20 years.

Yeah.

And it makes you think if over 20 years ago, when I was showing certain patterns, if someone had maybe stopped and asked me the question, would different things have happened? Alcohol feels like it's one of those areas that people are really scared to approach and it feels that people are I don't think it's a case of people not wanting to ask the question. I think we live in such a culture where alcohol plays such a pivotal role that sometimes people don't want to ask the question because they don't want to look in the mirror. At the same time? Yeah, I had numerous team members in my old business when I was a manager and people that were either alcoholic or people that were certainly struggling with alcohol, people that would come to work incredibly hungover. And the policies were all very clear in terms of how those people should be dealt with from a disciplinary point of view. What it wasn't ever very clear about was, how do we help those people? How do we help people face into certain things? How do we get people the support they need? It would be maybe a cursory comment from HR that in the closing statements of the disciplinary, before we sent them on their way, that we would recommend they talk to a doctor or something like that.

But actually, why couldn't we just it is, yeah, really sad. Really sad. And, you know, then the link of people losing their job that then are potentially going to face into financial hardship, the stress and pressure that can put on from a mental health point of view. And all of a sudden, if you throw alcohol into that mix, that's a really dangerous combination. Really dangerous.

It is so sad, isn't it? And yet, if it was any other kind of condition, mental health condition, there would be paid time off, there would be counselling, therapy, support, and it's a real stigma. There is this belief, and do you know what it's perpetuated by the alcohol companies, actually, there's this belief in society that it's the user's fault. So alcohol is legal to own it, it's legal to sell it, it's legal to buy it, it's legal to consume it. If you can't control that, that's your own fault. Everyone else can. That's kind of what we're told. That's what the whole drink responsibly thing tells us. And actually, you can flip that on its head. So it's the only carcinogenic addictive substance that we have in beautiful bottles with uplighting in bars with beautiful labels and marketing and advertising. If you put cocaine in packaging that looked like alcohol, people would be up in arms.

Absolutely.

And I think if there was a free cocaine bar at every workplace too, and everyone else took cocaine and you took cocaine and got addicted to it, people would probably say they shouldn't be giving out cocaine. But when it's alcohol, it's completely different, isn't it? Interesting how it is? You just change one ingredient in the story, it's a completely different perception.

Absolutely. And I look at things like cider. Cider is a prime example, isn't it? Ciders, the last few years, has become this fashionable drink. And I'm celiac, I did drink cider. But you're right, the funky flavours that are put into it, it took me back when you were saying about the bottles and stuff like that, to when I was younger and things like Bacardi Breezes and that came out and it was entirely about enticing young people into drinking that kind of alcohol. Pop generation. And if anything, hooch. Yeah, that's right, I do. Yeah. The lemon hooch and the green bottles.

Yeah.

But the sad thing is, though, that we don't seem to and I think you're right in terms of a lot of the big companies out there, we don't put enough emphasis behind a, what are the dangers with it, but B, what's the alternative? Because ultimately, this isn't all about people never drinking, it's about actually people making sensible choices and understanding what sits behind that, but people being able to have a choice in the first place. And I use football as a really good example. I love football, we'll go to football every opportunity. But football is such a big culture with drinking. And if you go to a football ground, can I get a non alcoholic drink? No. Unless I want a cup of bovril. But I'd like to think that I'm not quite a bovrel time in my.

Life.

Or the age old sorry. Soft drinks.

Yeah.

And I just think such a shame and so sad that we just discount people.

Yeah, I know. I'm quite surprised you can't get a 0% beer at a football match. Yeah, interesting.

Because there may be some grounds.

That'S the one thing you can normally get in the pub is an alcohol free beer, which is a big improvement on the days of only having Becks Blue.

Yes.

But still, there's a long way to go to have proper choice.

There is, absolutely. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But you're right in terms of the amount of money that gets put behind marketing campaigns and everything else. And you see things like football is a great example, actually, where there's a lot of emphasis behind football at the moment in terms of teams promoting and advertising sponsorship with betting agencies. And you remember years go by. It used to be alcohol that was heavily kind, know, promoted through, know, Liverpool for years, were sponsored by Carlsburg. I think it England had that sort of link as well. And there does seem to be that culture around it, but that points people in the direction of you should drink, you should drink, you should drink, instead of people having that choice and having that probably the pitfalls that come with it as well. That's maybe one thing that I could have benefited from at a younger age.

Yeah, that's an interesting point, actually. Is there anything else that you think, I wish that I'd known that sooner, or I wish I'd come across such and such a thing sooner. What's helped you?

I think there's a few things really so for me, because I had convinced myself for so long that people expected me to be a certain way, that I had to do certain things that I did need to be the centre of attention that actually, I had really good people around me and my worry of, if I don't drink, what will they think of me? Was absolutely unfounded. They've been absolutely brilliant. My close friends have been absolutely brilliant. I couldn't have asked for any more. And I suppose if I could give myself any advice from years gone by, it would be you don't have to do the things that you think people are expecting. You are allowed to do the things that make you happy. And I think if maybe I'd have kind of thought like that when I was a lot younger, maybe I'd have still got to this point where I don't drink, or maybe I'd have just been able to manage and have a better relationship with alcohol. But as it was for me, years of thinking I had to be a certain way and alcohol being the prop that I needed to get me to that place, actually wasn't necessary.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. What about a bit of inspiration? Have you found certain people to be really inspirational on your journey to being sober? Like, did you have any sober role models before?

It's funny because I have grown up in a drinking culture, really. We grew up in the licence trade and everything like that, but I remember a few years ago, my my brother, who's a little bit older than me, you know, he I can't remember how long he went, either two or three years, I think. And people said, similar to him, that they've said to me, oh, we'll see how long this lasts, and whether it's the fact that we've got huge amounts of stubbornness in us. But he went kind of two, three years, and then he did go back to drinking, and he can kind of pick up and stop and everything else whenever he wants, really. But I think one thing that I have had is whilst he's someone that I kind of definitely look to and go, well, if you were able to do it, then I could do it. I think there's also the bit for me is social media can be a good thing, but also a really bad thing. But the good thing with social media is there's some really good people out there doing some good things. And one of my oldest friends from university has got a really great Instagram account.

And, I mean, his motivation is sickly, but actually it just helps you see that anybody can do anything if you put your mind to it. And I've found that surrounding yourself with good people, when you go through challenges of suffering, with mental health, as I did, or making the decision to stop drinking, as I did last year, you find out who your friends are and the people that are really close to you and the people that support you, because you're. You. And so surrounding myself with those people doing things that are right for me and for my family, they're the things that actually people praise and comment on. People may laugh a little bit at your little WhatsApp videos and stuff the morning after the night before, but actually they then go home and they go, oh, my word, you should have seen Dave last night. So maybe in the moment they think it's really funny, but in the cold light of day, it's not really. And I'm a 41 year old man with four children. There's things that you just don't need to be doing anymore. So having good people there to support your decision but also then encourage you to keep going because they can see the benefits that it's giving you is so crucial.

I agree. I would totally agree with that. Yeah. To be honest, my husband didn't really want me to stop drinking because it shines a light and we're drinking partners and all the rest of it. And it wasn't really until he started to see how much better I was doing without it that he sort of got on side. It was quite an interesting one. I think sometimes couples do go through a little bit of a rocky period when one of them starts to question their relationship with alcohol. And I wouldn't say it was a rocky period, actually, but there was a bit of push and pull in different directions and it took quite a lot for me to stand firm and say, no, I am doing this. But, yeah, we're totally through that. Absolutely.

That's so important to keep that belief, though, isn't it, of I am doing this, I am doing this. And it's funny because I talk quite openly now, but if I look back, actually, when I was drinking, I was drinking to hide away from all the stuff that I was carrying around. I was drinking to hide away from the reality of facing into that. But actually, that drinking was suppressing me from facing into it. It was suppressing me from being able to talk about it. And I'm not saying that anyone I randomly meet in the street, I start talking about my life story, but I can share the stuff that I've been through. And I suppose I was worried about being judged previously, but now the way I look at it is I don't want people to go through the same things that I went through. So if one bit of my story can be relatable to someone and it either stops them from doing something, it asks them to just ask themselves a question, seek some help, even seek some education, then for me, that's worth it. So I still get worried about being open and honest, but I can be proud of the fact that I'm doing it for the right.

Absolutely. Well, that's that's very heartening to hear, actually, Dave. So when it comes to alcohol and your mental health, then? To what extent do you think that the issues that you've had in the past with your mental health and alcohol have been kind of wrapped up together and I guess has things kind of resolved since you stopped drinking? Like, how much would you say they're tied together?

I would say really closely, yeah. Over 20 years masked what I was really kind of going through. I went through periods of time where I would self harm. I went through a couple of phases in my life where I felt like I just didn't want to be here. And alcohol always played a big part in that. I would be under the influence at the point that I wanted to do any of those things. If I felt sad or I felt like I was losing control, my answer was to have a drink, was to go out, was to sit at home and have a load of drink. It wasn't even a I need to be in a social scenario. So it has absolutely been hand in hand. And I think when I look back 20 years ago as someone in their early 20s, it wasn't something that you could openly sit and talk about. I certainly didn't feel I could I didn't feel that I could face into having mental health challenges. You kind of get brought up in this environment of you've cut from the strong cloth, you don't cry, you don't show emotion. You've got to be the person that shows strength.

And I just couldn't do that. So my answer was, well, I'll drink then instead. And that's what I did, and I just kept doing it. And there had been times leading up to when I eventually did face into my mental health that my wife would say to me, you need to talk to somebody. And I'd be like, I'm all right, I can handle it. But my answer was, I'll handle it by keeping it all in here and washing it down with a drink. That ends up for me, it did anyway. That ends up with just getting to the point where you can't function. I just could not do anything, and I would break down in tears. And even when I first started facing into my mental health, I was still drinking at that point. And I was encouraged to do things like journaling and stuff like that, which I am a massive fan of and I still do now. But I would look back every now and again at some of the journal entries, and you can tell the ones where I'd had a drink and I'd not had a drink, and just the things that I wrote, the way that I would write, the level of negativity.

Whereas then when I got to the point where I made the decision to kind of look at my relationship with alcohol, you look at my journal entries and all of a sudden they end with a few more points of gratitude. What am I grateful for? What's going well? What am I pleased about? What makes me thankful? And that just wasn't there before. So whilst it's not the sole kind of factor within my mental health challenges, I still struggle massively with depression today. I still have to be really conscious of how I'm feeling and kind of managing that on a day to day basis. But actually, not having alcohol there.

It.

Makes it easier to identify, makes it easier for me to recognise when I'm good, not so good when I'm just okay. And that's all right as well. It's okay to just be okay. You don't always have to be good or bad. But not having the alcohol gives me the chance to do that. People will say to me, do you think you'll drink again? And the honest answer is, I don't know. I go through phases where I go, no, I don't think I will. Or there's other phases where I go, do you know what? It might be nice if I can get a little bit older, that I could go to a country pub on a Sunday afternoon and read the paper and have a pint of ale. Don't know. Right now in my life, I don't want to go anywhere near it. Like I say, I feel like I'm in the best condition I've ever been in. I feel like I'm the best dad I've ever been to my kids. And that's what we all want as parents, right? We want to make sure that our kids have better than what we had. And if I look at the version of myself 423 days ago or the version of myself today, I think I know which one my children would prefer.

Yeah. Oh, that's so nice. What a good dad. My only regret is that I didn't stop when my girls were younger, actually. They still got a few years of having a sober mum, but they got quite a few years of not having a sober mum as well. And it's huge, isn't it? It is huge for parenting skills. I mean, everything you need as a parent is better with sobriety. Like patience.

Absolutely. The lack of but how many days I'd get to the end of a day or Saturday or a Sunday and be like, oh, my word, the kids haven't stopped. I need to have a curry and a beer.

The last thing you need, isn't it?

Absolutely. Because it doesn't make you feel any better.

Oh, it's just going to make it so much worse. And then you're going to get more irritated by any little flare ups. You're going to fly off the handle much more easily. The whole thing just explodes, doesn't it? Whereas when you're sober and you could just go, okay, so we're doing this, then, and stay calm. And you're calm, your kids are calm. Guess what? Honestly, hangovers and young children change one.

Thing yeah, that's it. No, they don't go well. They don't go well. Hangovers and young children. Definitely not.

They really don't. I know. Yeah. It's crazy. I cannot believe how successful the mummy and popular the mummy wine culture is, really? Because it's like, we need to create a mummy sober culture.

Absolutely.

Start that. Start some meat.

That seems to be the thing, though, doesn't it, when you become a parent? And I certainly found it for the first few years when our kids were young that that probably didn't help me in any way, because you then go, I get a night out. Oh, my word, I'm going to make the most of this.

Drink as much as I can.

Yeah, you're just written off and then you look at it and you think, when you're there in the morning and massively hungover and your kids going, can we go out on our bikes and stuff? You're like, I don't want to be going anywhere that involves me getting dressed. And that's not fair on them. That's not fair.

No, it's not at all.

No. I just didn't have and don't have a good relationship with alcohol. It does not make me a better person. And I think, like you, it's easy sometimes to look back with regrets, but I can't change any of that now. No, but, yeah, I wish maybe I'd seen a little bit sooner the things that alcohol did to me as a person.

Yeah. And that's what's so great about you speaking up and sharing your story and being quite vocal with men and in the workplace. Because that group of men who are struggling in silence, knowing that their relationship with alcohol isn't quite right, knowing that they could be a better dad if they didn't have a hangover, knowing that the right thing is to be able to take the kids out on a bike, knowing that they're pushing down difficult thoughts and feelings. With alcohol, you can reach those people by talking about this in the workplace, and it's so powerful. I just think, Good for you, and hats off, because I think there are millions and millions of men in that position who will resonate with your story. And even if you only reach a tiny percentage of them, you'll do so much good in the world. Dave.

I say it quite often when I talk to people about any of these sort of subjects, and I always say the aim when I started talking was and I think a lot of people say the same sort of things, but if I can kind of impact one other person in a positive way, then great. Mission accomplished. But how many people actually go, I've helped one person, I'm going to stop now. We shouldn't stop at one and we don't stop at one, because if I don't talk about it and you don't talk about it, then who's going to? And whilst there are other people out there, we need that to be the common thread rather than the outlier, rather than the little whisper in the corner. And people do need to feel, especially men do need to recognise that actually, it's all right. It's okay to recognise that things aren't great. It's all right to recognise that maybe someone's self medicating with alcohol. And you don't need to. There are options out there and there's like minded people that can help you along the way.

Yeah, absolutely. So, for anyone who's listening, how can they find out more about kind of the work that you do around mental health? How can they get in touch with you? Are you available for, I don't know, like, lived experience speaking and that kind of thing?

Yeah, absolutely. And again, this kind of came about by accident, really. So I remember when I first went back to work and it was coming up to Time to Talk Day, and I said to the lady that worked in our communications department at the time, I want to do something for Time to Talk day, but I don't quite know what and I don't know if I'll be able to. So I started out with just talking about my experience, but I did it in a slightly different way. So I do it through, like, a little cartoon strip, because, actually, the subject of mental health can be quite tough for people to either talk about or listen to. And then that's grown, really, over the last couple of years. So I've delivered sessions through my last two workplaces to quite a significant number of people. I've done some sessions externally with some alternate businesses, done some webinars, and in fact, I think we share a webinar partner that we've guest appeared on, which is Anna at Stratus Coaching. And then this year so myself and a lady called Becky and a chap called Niall have launched a podcast, which I'd said right at the beginning, I didn't want to do a podcast, I just wanted it to be free flow and open conversation.

However, it's become a podcast and it's called not another Mental Health Podcast. So we tend to record it and it's on our YouTube channel. You can access it through Spotify as well. Or we do have a website, which is Namhp Co UK. So stands for not another mental health podcast. And, yeah, we're still fairly new. We're still finding our feet. I think we're about seven episodes in. We've taken a little short break now to go. Okay, let's reflect, let's do a bit of a lessons learned and let's build for what we want going forward. So hopefully we'll be seeing you on an episode in the near future to return the gesture, anything that helps shine a light on mental health, men's mental health. And for me, I'm a massive ambassador in terms of driving this kind of sober culture that this country definitely needs.

It really does, doesn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Getting an alcohol. Safe workplace in place.

Oh, my word. Absolutely. And hopefully we'll have some good stuff to celebrate there because I know we've been talking about that.

Exactly.

Yeah, we have a workplace where I am at the moment.

About that just yet, but you never know.

The wheels are spinning. The wheels are spinning.

No, it's great. And I feel as though it's inevitable that we'll end up doing some more work together. I just tell I don't know what it looks like yet, but I love the way that you're so open and collaborative and just you've got such a similar ethos to the whole workplace recovery as I have. I just can tell that something good is going to happen.

Absolutely. No, it's been good, it's been good. And I think the first time I saw you was on the webinar that you did for Anna. And then ever since we've been trying to get time together and then when we started, we finally got there, didn't we? And you can tell with some people that things just click and I absolutely feel the same. It feels like we've got so many kind of shared values and certainly in this space. So, yeah, hopefully lots of exciting things.

Can't wait to see what comes next. Yeah, we'll have to put you on for another year's time and see what we've done in that year. It'd be interesting, wouldn't it?

Absolutely.

Change.

Do our own little reflection back.

Absolutely. Get that in the diary.

Brilliant.

Let's go big or. Thank you, Dave. Yeah.

But on sobriety, not on the absolutely, yes.

Thank you so, so much, Dave. You have been a fantastic guest and thank you for all the work you do helping to promote mental health in the workplace. You're a star.

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Oh, thank you so much, Dave, for being such a great guest. And you can tune into Dave's podcast. Not another mental health podcast in all the usual places. Or you can find him on LinkedIn. He is Dave Ramsey. Not David, but Dave. D-A-V-E Ramsey. There are quite a few Dave Ramsey's, though, so you may be better looking on Instagram. And you can follow that podcast at not another mental health podcast. And it's literally just all one word, not another mental health podcast like that. So you'll find him easily on there and I just love the tagline that he's got on that. You don't have to be a mental health expert to make a difference. Completely agree, Dave. Love it. Just before we wrap up, I wanted to remind everyone that we are having a business networking day on the 18 January. So, different arm of my business. I run a sober business networking community. We are going to be hosting a day of Business Mindset Mastery on the 18th. Everybody who comes to the event will be asked to bring their three business priorities for the following year and we're going to spend the morning using some techniques from NLP to make sure that our subconscious minds are working towards those priorities.

And then in the afternoon we're going to be sharing our priorities with the rest of the group and asking people to pledge their support, their expertise, their knowledge, sharing, perhaps collaboration, something that they can do to help others in the room to meet those priorities and to hit those goals. And I am super excited because everyone is going to leave with crystal clear vision of what they want to do over the next twelve months and with a little support team behind them who are going to help them. So if you'd like to know more about that or buy a ticket, you can find out all about it on thesoberbusinessnetwork Co UK. And yeah, I'd love to see you there. Did I say it's in Manchester? It's at the Love From Bar, which is the pop up alcohol free bar at campus in Manchester near Piccadilly Station. So yeah, head to Soberbusinessnetwork Co UK and find out about that. Hope to see lots of you there. Thanks very much. Bye bye. If you'd like to learn more about creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz, visit choosesumlife Co UK and head to the HR services page.

Let's end the stigma because nobody should feel afraid to ask for help with alcohol use.