Podcast Transcript - Episode 0025 - Alcohol, Health and Safety with Mark Glover

Welcome to the Professional Drinkers podcast, brought to you by Choosesunrise Co. UK. I'm Janet Hadley and this is for you. If you're an HR professional, a business owner, or a leader who'd like to explore the drinking culture in your workplace, I'll bring you lived experience, stories, expert views and tips for creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buzz. Hello and a very warm welcome back to the Professional Drinkers podcast with myself, Janet Hadley. It's so lovely to be back and to have such a fantastic guest. This week we will be chatting to Mark Glover, who is the editor of SHP Online. If you don't know what that is, then you're not a health and safety professional. It is the safety and health professionals kind of industry magazine, although obviously these days, like most magazines, is purely online. Mark is also the host of the SHP podcast as well, which if you've never listened to, I definitely recommend episode 37 where you can hear an interview between myself and Mark with us on the other side of the mics each which I was really privileged, actually, to be invited in to speak to Mark and to talk about alcohol culture and how it relates to health and safety in the workplace.

So that's well worth a listen. Mark has got a journalistic background. He is not a traditional health and safety professional, although it is fair to say he is rapidly becoming an expert in health and safety. And Mark's been really courageous, actually, in coming onto this podcast to share a little bit of his own personal journey with alcohol and to share some of his experience of alcohol addiction historically within his own family as well. So if you're wanting to have more of a health and safety conversation, then I've actually invited Mark to come back on later in the year because we had such a good chin wag that we didn't really get on to talking about health and safety in the workplace. So, like I say, you can go back and listen to the Safety Conversation podcast, episode 37, or just hang on for a few weeks until Mark's back to talk about that. I really, really hope that you enjoy this episode as much as we did making it. We really did have a great chat. So sit back, get yourself a brew and have a listen. Hello and welcome to my guest this week, Mark Glover, who is an employee and a writer for SHP, which if you don't know what it is, I will hand over to Mark to explain a little bit about who you are and about SHP.

Hi, Janet. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm, as you say, I'm the editor, I guess, of SHP. SHP online. So it's the safety and health practitioner magazine that. We used to be a magazine, but now we're digital and it's about occupational safety and health, really, and looking after people in the workplace. So we straddle an awful lot of industries, as you can imagine, construction, manufacturing, transport, retail, wherever work is, really. But I think why it's interesting to be on this podcast today is to talk about alcohol in the workplace, because it is a facet that does come into our editorial and we speak about looking after people, monitoring people, alcohol in the workplace, and particularly in some of the sectors that I've mentioned. So, yeah, it's an important magazine. It touches a lot of people that perhaps we don't realise. But, yeah, we did a podcast, didn't we, before Christmas, where you kindly came on to the SHP podcast and we sort of discussed that area around looking after your employers, really looking after your workforce. We touched a fair bit on mental health, which I know alcohol and people who struggle with alcohol.

It sort of dovetails, I think it's why I'm pleased to be on. It's a bit of a taboo subject, I think, still across it is, but in the workplace as well, it's perhaps even more of a taboo subject. You don't want to accuse someone. What happens after they tested positive and how do you look after them? Bit of a rambling intro there, but very pleased to be on, and that's what we did.

How did you end up in that role, then? Have you got a health and safety background or occupational health, or are you more of an editorial background or. Yeah. What's your background?

Yeah, no, it's journalism, really. So I studied journalism at college and then came out of that and went into sort of b to b journalism, which is various. I've worked across a couple of different sectors. I did cut my teeth, actually, at the Financial Times, but sort of chasing copy for them a lot. Not as glamorous as it does, but it got me into the kind of chasing it was very much sort of chasing adverts, chasing copy and speaking to people. And it was pretty old school. And then got into the first magazine I worked on was around airports, funnily enough, international airport review. But it was cool. It was nice to sort of get a different perspective on things and actually, I find that something that's a bit different to what I'd expected. Like, I guess, in a way, maybe I'd want to write about football or write about music, but I find different industries really interesting. It's a challenge. And then health and safety. Working in health and safety for SHP was about seven, eight years ago. And a bit like perhaps most people on this podcast might be thinking, well, it's just health and safety, it's a bit boring.

People always say, oh, health and safety, why are you trying to stop us doing stuff? There's more to it than that. It's basically looking out for people and particularly this mental health crossover and the well being and encouraging young people to get involved as well, and being diverse. That's the thing I've really got into in these last couple of years or so. It's an interesting sector, very kind sector as well, and very caring.

Yeah, you're right. It doesn't always have the most glamorous image, does it? I mean, when I think of health and safety, I think of someone with a clipboard telling me that I can't do know and just being a bit annoyed by Jobsworth. And the reality of it is completely different. Like, you know, where would we be without. Well, I know where we'd be without health and safety, because, interestingly, I spent about a month in Indonesia where they have no health and safety legislation at all. It doesn't exist and it is so terrifying. You just have to look out for yourself. So every vehicle that you get in, there's no obligation for them to do any safety cheques, there's no liability for them. If the bus or the aeroplane that you're on crashes, you can't see the company, it just doesn't exist and you just have to look out for yourself and it's absolutely terrifying. It really is.

Absolutely, yeah.

So you realise quite quickly actually know, yes, there may be a few clipboards involved, but the things on those lists are keeping you alive, so maybe you should show a bit of gratitude to know.

It's a really good point. And I think in the UK, we're good at health and safety. Health and safety, it works. At which, funny enough, is 50 years old this year, so you sort of forget what, 50 years ago there was mad, isn't it? And it was probably like it was in places like you mentioned, there was nothing. So it is there for a reason, I guess. But I always say to sort of like, sum it up a bit, it's about, you want people to go home safe. I understand why people would argue against it, I get the optics, but it can be done well. And there are some really forward thinking people in the sector, some really good young people coming through there's some good working groups out there and ultimately it does helping us go home every day, hopefully safe.

Yeah. I think the older I get, the more I appreciate things like this. I think the other thing that is definitely true from a neuroscience point of view, is that you don't fully develop your risk assessment ability in your brain, like that frontal part of your brain that assesses risk. It's not developed until your mid 20s, which is really interesting. I only found that out recently. But of course, that is why when I was, what, 21, me and my boyfriend, then husband, now, same person, we lived in Bangkok and we had this motorbike and we used to ride around Bangkok on it without a helmet on. I didn't even have a driving licence. Like, I literally learned to drive on a motorbike in Bangkok without a cycling helmet and I never thought twice about didn't. And I look back on it and I think, I have no idea how I'm still. Yeah, yeah. But I just didn't see it as a risk. I just thought, oh, yeah, well, get from a to b.

That'S that practise being young and you feel invincible. But then, isn't it, I think, like, in safety, like you were mentioning in Indonesia or in India or wherever, it's not necessarily their fault. If you were to say to them, can you put a crash helmet on, please? You'd get stared at as if you were bonkers and stuff. And it's kind of more cultural, it's kind of. It's ingrained and stuff. But perhaps, as you said, it's a similar thing when you're young, you kind of. I don't need to do that. I've got no idea. And perhaps we need that as well.

I have to say, when we got back from travelling, we had our children with us and there were eight when we set off and nine when we got back. And I remember getting in a taxi at Heathrow and they all got in the back and they were like, oh, the seatbelts. I've forgotten about seatbelts. And I just thought, we've really put them at risk here. We've been away in countries where there are no seatbelts for a whole year, but I wouldn't dream of putting my children in a taxi in London and not putting the seatbelts on, even though the traffic's much calmer than the places we've been. Isn't it strange how I did see it as a risk, but I didn't see it as a risk that wasn't worth taking? But even I look back on that and think, yeah, I would have really never forgiven myself if something had happened to them.

At the time. I guess when you're the culture that you're around, the kind of different, you're having a good time, it's exciting, isn't it? It's literally a world away from our lives, wherever we are, and you have no choice.

Like, there isn't a seatbelt, so if you do want to go from a.

To b, there is that as well.

Then you just have to take that risk. Yeah, you have to. I do remember a very nice person in Vietnam helping us cross the road with the children, because we'd been stuck for about probably 20 minutes and they were like, you just have to go. Just go. And the traffic will stop.

That's what it's like. And you sort of have to walk apart.

She was like, you just go in a straight line, don't try and avoid the traffic, they will go round you. If you try and avoid them, you'll confuse them and they'll bump into you. Just walk in a straight line across and they will all work round you. And it's true, but it's just hideous. Yeah. It's just the most horrible, scary experience.

Yeah, it's a world away, isn't it? It doesn't work like that here in the UK. You just go, there's a green man.

And you go, I went to great lengths, walked miles to avoid crossing various roads and things like that. It's just ridiculous. But I found it too scary. I would have done it on my own, but with children, I was just like, I can't do it.

Yeah, it's another level, isn't it, of risk there?

Risk, health and safety. Definitely. Probably more important than you appreciate when you see that health and safety label. And, yeah, it's interesting to think about how the topic of alcohol is starting to become more prevalent with employers when they're thinking about health. And, you know, back in the day when you were working at the FT, I'm willing to put money on the fact that there was absolutely nothing to stop you. If you'd have asked for support with alcohol use at the FT back in whatever year it was, what do you think might have happened?

Yeah, like late 90s. Really good point, actually, Jan, and a lot of the culture it was in that sort of environment, I think it was a media environment. It was also a sales environment, because you had the chaps that are on the phone selling the adverts, classified adverts, all of that. It was quite full on. It was a bit before the days of when we used to work from home. So Monday to Friday you're in and you get on and that's how you go for a beer.

Yeah. Pint after work is a real cool.

Pint after work and then lunchtime on a Friday or something. To be honest, I wasn't.

A bit.

Of a background at university, but you're kind of doing your first days at work, you're getting into the real world. You're kind of like. And you feel you just don't want to drink to that level. You think, I just want to go home or I just want to go to bed. I'm knackered. This has been so full on anyway.

Yeah.

But it is a cultural thing, and if I can. And, you know, and. And if I'm honest, it helped me. You know, I. It did sort of help perhaps sometimes in my. If I got to know. How'd you go for a pint? You know, it's just naturally you. So it's. It's had its. Perhaps that's where we go to. That's where we. We go for a pint and we chat about things and you chat about work. What else you can talk about, because your work call and then something might come out of it. But I think now, particularly where I'm at now, and that's 20 years on, that there is that sort of. I think it's still there a little bit. It's not as pressured as some. I don't think people are being pressured, but I do worry that we have just might not want to go out, drink. Why should they be forced to go and have a pint after work? Because that's what demanded of a client, or that's how you meet someone and stuff. It's not as it was, but I think actually, and we talked about this on our last pod, the SHP podcast, Janet, about in construction.

Perhaps there is a bit more of a male dominated, there's more blokes that work in it and there's have a couple of pints after work. And that's how it is. That's how it is. And to have the ability even now, to sort of speak up and go, actually, I'm struggling a bit, or I'm having a few too many beers or my family, the money's kicking in or the cars needs fixing. How do you as a young male, sort of be able to speak up because of that environment? Come on, let's go for a pint and we'll sort it out. Why aren't you coming for a pint, Dave, or whatever? It still exists. It does totally exist, but I don't know. It's better, but I still think it preys on a lot of sort of younger people. There's a lot of peer pressure still around it, having a beer after work or whatever, because you have to fit in. It's peer pressure in that way.

And like you said, I think there is quite a lot about fitting in, isn't there? In every workplace, there's a bit of an in crowd, and that in crowd are probably drinks, no matter where you are. Yeah. Companies that foster that and that kind of encourage it or that have senior management who are part of that in crowd, I think, are the ones where you've got the most potential issues. So I had a really interesting message on LinkedIn from a young woman who is a Muslim, who said, I really wish you would come to my workplace, because I really struggle. I work in the city of London. There's a real in crowd. They all go out drinking together all the time. I'm a muslim woman. I've never been in a pub and I'm never going to. And I've tried raising the issue myself, and everyone just thinks, well, it's you who chooses not to drink, so it's your problem. So we're not doing anything about it. And she just sent me this really heartfelt message about how she really wished I was in her workplace. And I asked her to give me her HR director's name, and she did.

And I wrote to the HR director and explained, right. What I received and just didn't get anything back from them. I just thought.

Didn't get anything back?

No. I just thought that she probably thinks it's some lead generation tactics and that I send it out to millions of people. And if you are listening, I don't. I've only ever sent it to you, so it's real. But, yeah, I just thought it was really sad that in this day and age, there's enough people out there for someone to have reached out to me personally to say, I wish you were in my workplace. How many others are there out there? It's really sad.

Do you know what, Jared, I feel perhaps shows the strength of your podcast and what you're doing that someone can sort of reach out. Like that's good, that she can reach out to you, and I hope you can help in some way. But it's so sad because you're right. That is probably particularly in the city, in the financial district, that's probably a microcosm. And again, it's someone who is from a diverse background, who's female, is already on the back foot coming in. She's worked hard to get there, I imagine. And it's to be sort of to be dismissed like that. You kind of go, and how many people must have gone, sod this.

Yeah, I'll find someone else to work. I can't.

I can't be bothered. I can't be bothered. This is just too much hassle. And that. That sort of drinking environment can be really intimidating. I think sometimes in a strange kind of school gangs way, that you're kind of looked upon as if, why aren't you having a pint? What's wrong with you? Hang on, I'm going to wake up tomorrow with a clear head and probably achieve more than. And you're asking, what's wrong with me exactly? You're not making any sense at the moment and you're dribling, but you're asking, what's wrong with me? Don't get me wrong, I do still have a drink and I used to drink a lot more when I was younger. I used to play football as well when I was younger, for like a Sunday, I just enjoyed playing football. But I used to hate the culture of having a pint after. And you did after, you always went back to the working men's club, or if you're playing away, you'd stop. And I just want to go home, but I'll stand there with my pint, laughing along and thinking, oh, is this done yet? And why can't I be? And just thinking, is this my problem or whatever?

And I think that is so embedded in culture and that's how it is. But, hey, if you'd like it and you get on with it and hopefully you're aware of people around you, you can say something, but I'm not going to argue against that. But for some people, like who you mentioned in the sit, it must be really lonely. A little bit.

Definitely, yeah. And I think, although this particular individual will never go into a pub, so it won't help them. But I do think that the kind of explosion of innovation of alcohol free options in hospitality is really, really helpful for people, because if you were in that football team today, chances are the pub would have an alcohol free beer that you could have, which would perhaps make it a little bit better for you. I don't know whether it was the social situation or the alcohol, really, but either way, you could drive, you just have a drink and drive.

Exactly.

Which is helpful. And the more and more places, there's quite a big movement in getting alcohol free beer on tap, like in what you call it. You know what I mean?

Draught.

Draught, that's the word, yeah.

And it's happening a bit, but you have to google them. Remember, there are a couple of pubs that do lucky saint, which I quite like. There are three in London and stuff, but I don't know.

Yeah, there's someone I know. I think it's Robin Lomax. It might be. I'll have to look it up. Who's made this amazing map of all the alcohol free beer on draught in the UK? And it's like a version of Google Maps, so you can just zoom in and have a look. And it's really amazing. I'll have to look it up and put it in the show notes and it's popping up all over the place. And there's a little place down the road from me where I live in Leeds, a place called the functional Drinks club. And the founder, Kevin, has just released an alcohol free beer, which he's doing in kegs. So I had a pint. I don't have a pint for years.

Was it nice?

Oh, it was amazing. It just felt like going home, because I used to drink pints all the time and when I first stopped drinking, I found it so difficult to go to the pub and not have a pint that I used to buy two bottles of alcohol free beer and pour them into a pint glass, which was about a tenor or something ridiculous. But that was the only way that I could feel like I could stand around with a pint in my hand and it made a big difference. I would have loved to be able to buy a pint on draught of alcohol beer. It really would have made things easier for me.

Do you think? It's habit? It's sort of enforcing. You stand at the bar with a pint, I guess. And then whilst you're not drinking the alcohol, at least it's something that you're still going to the pub, isn't it? And there's something nice about having a chat, even though that football mentioned example. But I still. Going to the pub and watching the football with a pint. Yeah, I dare say, is more important than getting the alcohol units inside you sometimes, for some. And if you can have that social interaction as well.

Yeah. I don't know why it mattered so much. I think there's a combination of habit and a bit of fitting in and people around me not knowing that I was drinking alcohol free. I didn't want people to know. I wasn't ready to tell some people. I just pretended that I was drinking alcohol.

Well, how long ago was this?

When I first stopped, so nearly four years ago now.

So that's still a pretty moved on. Oh, it has since then.

Yeah, it has, actually. Yeah, it has. I could get alcohol free beer in bottles, but definitely not in a pint.

You never got on.

Yeah. And ironically, these days it doesn't bother me at all. I can just have a glass of water and I'd be fine. But if they have got a beer on draught, I'll definitely buy it just for the novelty. Yeah, I've got a pint. Yeah.

This place I went, I think it was near off Tottenhall Road somewhere and I had some work to do and I'd just seen a client or something and I just thought, I quite fancy. And it was this lucky saint, which I quite like. Anyway, it's got a little bit of the edge, but he tried to pour it and of course, inevitably it just sort of bubbled up everywhere, but he got it. Too many people were asking for it on that. But it's one of my nicest times in a pub was just. It was a nice London pub and I was doing some emails and I was having a pint and there's part of me going, you shouldn't be having a pint doing. But it's fine. It just sort of calmed me down and I think I went home and after the day and I thought, that's a way forward, perhaps.

Yeah, definitely. And there's a lot of people who are becoming flexi drinkers, so they might still drink when it feels appropriate, because they do want the effect of the alcohol, but other times they want the placebo or they want just a nice, like, I think, a midday drink. Quite often there's something really nice about sitting in the sunshine, drinking a pint in the middle of the day. But I actually always hated daytime drinking because I always used to get a headache and it made me feel tired and you'd have stuff to do in the evening and you wouldn't be able to do it. So, like, an alcohol free pint in the middle of the day is perfect, I think. And lots of people are using alcohol free interchangeably with alcohol to suit them. Okay. That's becoming. In fact, most alcohol free drink sales are to drinkers, not to non drinkers. Non drinkers, yeah.

That's interesting.

Yeah, it is, yeah. The market is much larger within the drinking population. Than it is. Like the sober population are kind of okay with tea. We've just got used to it.

That's really interesting. Obviously, we're in January at the moment. You see a lot more kind of. Well, we were talking about it, weren't we, just before we came recording, but dry January. And I guess these non alcoholic beer companies, or drink companies, this is their opportunity, isn't it?

Yeah, it's a busy time for them, definitely.

But I like the idea of it working as a kind of half and half.

Yeah, exactly.

Is that healthy? Is that the good way to go about it, or is it.

I think it's a good question. Is it healthy? There's nothing unhealthy about alcohol free beer, for a start. So it's actually a really.

It's not alcohol.

It's a really healthy drink, though, on its own. It's healthier than having a Coke or a lemonade. Well, it's not. So you've got coke and lemonade, orange juice that kind of full of sugar or full of chemicals if you have the diet version. Yeah, we've got an alcohol free beer. It's like a fermented product. It's got benefits for your gut health. It's actually really low calorie. It's not got a lot of sugar or carbs in it. It's not a bad choice. It's not a bad choice at all. As a drink. I'd rather have a can of alcohol free beer in front of the tv at night than a can of coke. Definitely.

Than a can or a can of. But dark.

Yeah, 100%. So is it healthy? Obviously, it depends what you compare it to. I mean, if you compare it to water, probably not. Water is gradient, isn't it? But water is also a bit dull.

But I guess if you're trying to sort of cut down on your beer and stuff, it seems like a really healthy thing. It is, isn't it? Because it's cutting down for a pint.

Yeah.

It's never a bad thing.

It is always going to be good for you to cut down. Always stopping altogether is better than cutting down, but cutting down is better than staying the same. And all of it's better than going up and up and up, which is where I was. So, yeah, when it's escalating and it's going up and your tolerance is getting more and more and more, you can drink a whole bottle of wine and think, I can't feel that then. Yeah, definitely time for a break. I almost wonder if all of these amazing alcohol free options have been around when I was younger, and if I'd done things like having two pints of beer and then an alcohol free pint, whether I might have actually never run into the same problems with alcohol, and I might just be a moderate drinker. Although actually, I think I'm probably dreaming I was quite an alcohol fiend, actually. I don't think I would have bothered with the alcohol free pint.

Yeah, I was wondering if you've had a couple of pints, any, and then the use perhaps may be a bit too.

It's probably a bit optimistic.

I don't know, best intentions, who knows?

But I do think it's interesting that a lot of people are choosing to flip between the two, and I think it's something that employers are really behind on this. So there's an explosion of creativity in the alcohol free market. There's a clear and obvious interest in it. And yet employers are kind of still pursuing boozy, drinky work nights out, using alcohol as a reward, giving out bottles of wine for a job well done, having a free bar, having happy hour, and even, like, in the tech industry, especially having beer fridges in the workplace and stuff like that. Law firms with bars in the offices, without even really respectful alcohol free options on them. I just think you guys are going to look like dinosaurs in a few years when you get your Gen Z looking for employers and they see that they're just going to be. That's for old people.

Yeah, it's a good point. As I say, when I was working back at the FT, and then now where I am with SHP, which is the big publisher, and they're also obviously not as young as I thought I was, but there are younger people than me that are now graduating and stuff. And it's interesting, their attitude towards alcohol is perhaps a little bit different. They'll still go out and have a drink and stuff like that, but they might kind of just have a nice cocktail or something like that. Whereas before that would have been three or four pints in the time that they'd have had a cocktail and stuff. I think you make a really good point. And I know we're not just. Society isn't just this section of young people, and alcohol affects, arguably people older, but they're savy young people and they're a bit healthier. They know they need. Perhaps in post Covid, things have shifted. But I think you make a good point that eventually, yeah, dinosaurs, these things will die out. I think it becomes a bit more instead of just showing off it's like, well, do we really need this and stuff?

Because that said, amongst all those Gen zs, and there's still going to be three or four people that will struggle with it at that age.

Definitely.

And we're speaking about London. You never know what in other parts of the UK, wherever, an eye has to be kept on it and a sensible eye has to be kept on it.

Yeah. Do you deal with any universities at all? Like, does SHP kind of COVID that sector? Sort of COVID all sectors, really, don't you?

We work with academics who write for us around safety culture and safety psychology. No, particularly. Do you mean in that regard?

So it's something that started to come up. So we're doing a cultural audit for one of the universities at the moment, which is the first step towards getting our accreditation. And it's been really interesting because there's two sides to it. There's obviously the part that's normal for us, which is the alcohol safe workplace. So looking at what's in place for employers, looking at the policy, looking at gifting, hospitality expenses, all sorts of different things, and then they've got the student side of it as well. So we're actually looking at developing the accreditation into an alcohol safe university. Accreditation that does more than just the workplace. So it has everything that you'd have from an employer's perspective, but then also making it safe for students to be sober at that university. So having respectful, alcohol free options behind the bar at the student union, having a sober society or sober, curious society or whatever, having policies in place that kind of discourage those kind of traditional drinking games and some of the more dangerous behaviours that you see at universities. I'm not saying we're going to be like, completely the fun police, but I think being universities are really concerned about the well being of all of their students.

But particularly, it's been really interesting chatting to them about what a culture shock it is for people who come in from countries where there isn't such a drinking culture and how difficult it can be for them to feel like, how do they fit in here? They'll never have been to a nightclub, never have been to a pub, and suddenly they're thrust into this, I don't know, triple vodka for a pound scenario. I think that might be a 1990s price, actually. I know what you mean. And they want to move away from the image that they've had in the past, where they've probably actively encouraged binge drinking. Really?

Oh, gosh, yeah.

As students, and they don't want the rugby teams to be pouring vodka into each other's mouths. Sedares anymore. They don't.

God knows what else.

That's so tame, isn't it? Use your imagination.

Rugby teams, they're another level up drinking.

I'm not going to promise to legislate for rugby teams. Let's just put it out there beyond help. But I think there are definitely things that can be put in place that mean that people have choices and that they have safe places they can go if they choose not to drink and that they can fit in and socialise and meet people who are like minded. Yeah.

I mean, I don't spread it with a similar. Janet, when we went to. When I went to you go fresh as week back in the day and it was boozy, but I also found it. I didn't come from sheltered upbringing by any means, but you interrupt where a big fish. Wow, it's big here. And then you have a couple of beers or drinks and you meet. But I remember feeling quite intimidated, nervous, don't you? Because you're sort of being looked at again. I know it's probably for the first time in your whole, for me, anyway, like drinking career, for want of a better term of calling it a career, but where it takes the edge off and you do start to sort of go, I can relax a little bit now. Sometimes that can go a bit too much and confidence and that's where issues arise and stuff. I remember friends and flatmates that were just like, no, I'm staying in. And you would still go on, come out, no looking back now, going, I'm forcing them to do something they are deeply uncomfortable with and they're here. I respect that and I think it perhaps need to be, as you say in universities, perhaps something to be thought about and say, there are other options and stuff.

You don't have to go to the big disco night and two quid for whatever and stuff. It's about feeling comfortable.

Exactly.

But for some, that's what we'll do. They go and have a beer and they'll dance and they'll meet their mates and then they're made for life and they've done all right and it's fine.

It's not the same for everyone and people have different ways of being comfortable and different ways of socialising. I think we're just broadening our minds a little bit about what inclusion means and I think that alcohol is a real place at the table in that discussion because it is something that we have often got a bit of a blind spot to as employers or organisers of universities or whoever. If you're a drinker, you probably have a bit of a blind spot about including people who don't drink. Just as if you're white. You probably have a bit of a blind spot about including people who are not white. You don't always see it if you're not disabled, et cetera, et cetera. You can't see it until someone points it out to you. And that's okay. It's not a criticism. It's not something that you should feel ashamed of. It's something that I would just encourage you to open your mind to and to kind of put yourself into their shoes or invite people in to have their opinions. Listen to them. Listen to the sober people in your organisation. Do a listening group want to speak to all the people in this organisation who don't drink alcohol?

Let's hear from you. What do you think about the culture here? What you think about our policies? What do you think about our social activities? Gifting expenses, reward? Ask them, they'll tell you. Wouldn't it be nice of that place that the woman who wrote to me if her HR director did a listening group for all the people who didn't drink and she got to have a say?

Yeah. That feels game changing.

It does, doesn't it?

But it's the ingrained culture of drinking, I guess, really. As I was saying to you before, again, people are looked upon differently because they're not drinking, but why is that different? And I don't know if it's something to do with a social. People are forced. When you're younger, it's the cool thing to do and I'm too old to say cool, but you do you go for a pint or. It's sort of ingrained with it. I come from a family who are sort of drinkers, I guess, and it's always just been the way that it is. My dad doesn't drink anymore. He had his struggles. But before we go to the football to watch west and you'd have a pint. Go and see granddad and have a pint. That said, I had some loveliest times with my granddad down the local pub and having a chat with him and stuff. But to turn around to my granddad and say, I'm going to have a non alcoholic beer, it's so alien nowadays. I think he would get it, but it just seems so big. But I think it's changing, Janet. It has changed from the examples that I've been giving you to, speaking to colleagues who are like, younger and going, I don't know, I'm not going to go out for four pints tonight.

I'm going home. But it feels like there is more that could be done. And that's just when we did our podcast in SHP a while back that you kindly came on for, and you were talking about fundamentally, like, the alcohol company, the drink companies, it's in their best interest to sort of encourage and sort of target those groups and stuff. And the big business, that's kind of where the real crux of the matter is, isn't it? That's advertising, that's messaging, that's social media, that's brands, all sorts of stuff that really infiltrates people. And then you add that to something that chemically makes you. Takes the edge off.

Exactly.

I'm in now. This is fine. And perhaps they're gone or whatever.

I think this is a really interesting topic because it's something that I find people who've never drunk at all, which is normally someone who doesn't drink for faith reasons. I'll have these conversations with them where, since I stopped drinking, I can now see clearly that marketing an addictive substance to mass population has kind of led to this mass illusion that it's okay to just keep taking this drug. And it's almost like you can almost get to a conspiracy theory place of like, it's just keeping the people small. But when you speak to other people who come to this country from somewhere else where they don't have the culture, they have the same observation. They're like, oh, there's market like, you can't switch on the tv or go for a drive or walk down the street without seeing alcohol is just constantly advertised. There's the positive messages about alcohol, hundreds of them every day. Sometimes I do a little exercise where I take a photograph of all the alcohol adverts I see in a day. And you'd be amazed how many there are, because these people have never drunk at all and they never will. They just look at it and they think, gosh, you're all being drugged.

You're all kind of self medicating. And they find it alarming and very strange. And they definitely are not tempted by it because they look at it as almost like it's like the emperor's new clothes. And you can see that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes, but all the drinkers can't see it. And if you suggest that the emperor is not wearing any clothes, then some of the drinkers get quite upset and oh, I like drinking. I liked it. I drink because I want to, not because I have to. And you're like, oh, sorry, didn't mean to upset you.

Yeah.

I was just wondering if you'd noticed that it was an addictive substance that's been marketed to you your whole life and you appear to be addicted to it. Oh, let a fuse.

You can't say really interesting.

When you.

Strip it all back like that. It's just mad, isn't it? It's bonkers and ready to get someone else's opinion. Was never drunk before.

Yeah.

And you were saying before about getting a sober group together and going, what do you think? Laughing go, I don't know. This is absolutely insane.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's powerful as well to think, like, from that point of view. And again, I think also to the other extent of, if you do those conversations about saying to someone, I don't know, when you were like, actually, I'm drinking a bit too much. Were there times before when you sort of tried to approach it or even someone had said something or were you always a little bit self defensive? No, fine, yeah, I've still got my family. I'm all right, thanks.

It's a really good question because I know now, looking back on my whole life, that I almost had an alcohol issue from a young age, really. And I've met lots of people in the kind of recovery space who have got a similar story where people say, oh, no one likes alcohol at first, you have to get used to the taste, blah, blah, blah. Whereas I loved alcohol from the first sip. I loved it.

What did you drink during?

Whiskey. And I loved the taste of whiskey. I absolutely loved it. I didn't like beer, but I loved whiskey and I could drink it. I could drink whiskey and sherry and whatever there was in my parents drinks cabinet. And I loved the taste of it, the smell of it. I loved what it did to me. I loved the feeling of it. And I sought out alcohol at every opportunity from the first time I tried it onwards, which was about when I was about 13 onwards, and I had a bottle of whiskey in my locker at school, which I think is quite unusual, I now realise as an adult, but didn't really think anything of it. I used to take swigs of whiskey at break times. Did you really?

And did your mates know that you.

Were me and my friend Rachel used to drink it? Yeah, but some of my friends knew and thought it was really alarming and used to worry about me and try and get.

Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, obviously I was like, went off to kind of college in uni, was the ringleader of every single night out, ever. Just drank copious amounts every single night. I actually got kicked out of uni after a year and had to go to a different university that didn't have such good entry requirements to do a lesser degree. Sure. So that's a bit of a red flag in it, then. Got a job. Used to always be like, have this reputation for being the most drunk person out, but that didn't matter because I worked at a place with a work hard, play hard culture and I got promoted as a result of doing shots with the sales director at four in the morning. It was all just a bit of a laugh then. Kind of like, I did have a bit of a break from booze when I had my children. So I think I convinced myself that that meant I didn't have a problem. I didn't drink when I was pregnant, mostly because it made me feel really sick, even smell of it. But then as soon as they got old enough to sleep through the night, I was drinking bottles of wine in front of the tv and that escalated up to a ridiculous amount.

But there's been loads of things, like, I've fallen over, I split my head open, I've had accidents. I must have been in a and e several times. I nearly had a very bad accident with a firework, which my boyfriend pulled me away from at the last minute. And it didn't explode in my face, but it could have done just, oh, God, the risks, the things that have happened, the blackouts, having no memory of what's happened. I woke up on the pavement having probably been mugged. Like, I didn't have my purse or anything with me. Just woke up on the pavement. Just so many red flags that I look back on it and I think. I didn't think I had an issue. I honestly didn't think I had an issue. I just thought all this was fairly normal. But, yeah, it is so normalised that every single one of those stories was just a bit of a laugh. Like, every single one of them. The time when I was in that hotel and went out of my. I went to the loo, but I went out of the wrong door and out into the corridor and the door shut behind me and I didn't have my key and all I had on was, like, a t shirt that wasn't really long enough to pull it down and waddle all the way down to reception and get a spare key.

That was awful. That was absolutely awful. And then in the morning they said, sorry about the fire alarm last night, and I was like, I didn't hear a fire alarm. Didn't hear it, didn't hear it. Do you know what I mean? There were so many reasons for me to think I need to do something about this. It had to get quite extreme before I noticed that it was a capital p problem. It was always just a little p problem.

I find it really. It's fascinating, isn't it? It's not great, but it still is fascinating. And us as humans sort of try and protect ourselves as much as possible. We're almost so clever in a way to be able to push stuff back and go, that's fine. I was able to. I do know what you mean, sort of wake up. God, and why like that. And you kind of laugh it off. You feel crap, don't you? Feel crap for a bit? And you go do this again.

Yeah. And you don't.

The anxiety, but then you go, right, I'll have a couple of quiet days and then I'll get back. But you'll just have a pint again with a mate. And it's very easy to push it away because it is so difficult to admit. And again, I'm sort of from my dad's perspective and he won't mind me saying this, he used to work up in the city, in London, and when he retired, he really struggled. A big drinking culture as well, Janet. Obviously, up in the city, he worked very hard, he's achieved commute every day and stuff, but he got made sort of retired, made redundant, so he wasn't prepared for it. He was going to retire, but it came a bit earlier than he thought and that him. And then he was drinking a lot anyway. And I think it was. My mum said, look, he was sort of hiding bottles in the car and stuff like that and it was my mum that was like, look, I don't think there was any kind of incident. I don't think he fell over or anything, but it was routine. It was nine. At ten, he would take the dog out and then go to the pub for half ten kind of thing.

But I speak to him about it now and speak to mum about it now. Mum was like, it couldn't have gone on. And I think there was an ultimatum there, but he never. My dad as well, quite arrogant and a bit kind of, I'm fine, but now he doesn't drink, he feels health, obviously feels healthy. He's older now, so he's still got like, being old. You know what? I tried to talk to him about it, because I say to him, look, dad, I think this is one of the most amazing things. I'm very proud of him. And given what our relationship. We go to football, we have some of our bonding moments. We down the pub talking about music and football or careers and jobs and stuff like that. He's very kind father. And he's like, no, I just don't want to. Do you ever fancy a pint, dad?

No. Yeah.

And he won't say anything more about it. If I was him, I'd be like, showing off, saying, this is what I've done, that sort of achievement. But he went there through AA, Janet. So I know it's a different thing to what we're perhaps sort of talking on, but to admit that, I can't imagine what he would have gone through to admit that and to go, to admit that and say, okay, because he was a proud and still is a proud person. And I think that's sort of rowing back a bit. But that's my point, is how tough is it to be able to go? It's so much easier to go, no, I'm fine. I've got circumstances and to some extent, of course, we all have life. And I remember you saying how your husband was ill and things. And things happen to us all, but ultimately you can go, right, okay, it's time to sort of.

It is the single most difficult thing I have ever done in my life is sending this online message to an alcohol counsellor. And I still got the message. I kept a copy of it and it'll make me cry if I read it out loud to you, but I just sound so broken in it. I read it now and I think it takes an incredible amount of self honesty. We're so good, like you say, we're so good at pushing away the truth from our conscious mind. I had known really deep, deep down that I had a problem with alcohol for a long, long time. But it was manageable and I didn't want to address it, I didn't want to do anything about it. And it's only when the pain gets worse than the resistance to change that you'll make that decision. And the resistance to change probably stayed quite high, but the pain just got higher and higher and higher until eventually the balance tipped and I was like, I can't live with it being this bad.

Broke.

Yeah. I actually cannot live with getting this level of hangover this often and upsetting people.

So physical, literally, physical pain.

Physical pain, but emotional. It was my daughter.

Anxiety, mental health.

It was my daughter. It was my daughter Evie. She said to me one day, I wish you would be a better role model for us. And it just broke me. That was it.

Dagger to the heart, isn't it?

That was the pain. That was the most painful thing. And I had a really bad hangover at the time as well. And I just sent the message. I just sent the message. I was like, I'm going to just send it now. And then I'll have sent it and then he'll hopefully do something. And he did. He rang me later that day and booked me in and bundled me up in his arms, metaphorically, and looked after me and it was the best thing I could have done. It's such a pivotal turning point, sending that message in my life in that moment, making that decision. And that's what I just want to do for people. By going into the workplace and reaching those people who like me, deep down, they know that something needs to change and they just don't quite dare to admit it. And to do something, if I can just reach one of them, it's worth it.

I'm sure Bernard sounds like you are. And it's amazing and I can see why it's so challenging, something that you've relied on for so long. It's scary having that taken away, isn't it? Because you're like, what do I replace it with? And I know we've got to go running or we got to do yoga, we've got to break bread and do all this stuff or sew in. But when you relied on something, is rely the right word? When you have something that's part of your life so much, it's scary, isn't it?

It's terrifying.

It's absolutely terrifying. Did you cope with that? Like, what was that like after, obviously, the initial kind of pulling the plug and reaching out stuff, that crossroads. But then do you remember, like, say, eight days after thinking, I fancy a pint?

It's really interesting, actually, because when I started working with my therapist, he was like, I don't want you to stop drinking straight away. We need to do a bit of work first to get you ready to stop. And I was like, oh, brilliant. So I was drinking. But even just by having spoken to him and starting being more conscious and aware of my drinking, my drinking started to change.

How do you mean?

I didn't enjoy it as much or I felt, like, much more self conscious when drinking. I knew that I wanted to stop. That was it. Because it was like a flip flicking in my brain instead of being in this place of, I don't want to stop drinking, drink, drink, drink, carry on, carry on. It was like a flip, gone. I was like, I do want to stop drinking and I am drinking, and now it feels a bit weird and a bit wrong and a bit different. And he was right to say that, because it meant that it was about two or three weeks of carrying on drinking before we agreed completely, I'll stop now. And I was ready. And also I started doing some of the work on why I was drinking. And he did things with me like notice, become really aware of the first time during each day when you think about drinking and notice how early it is. And that surprised me. And you realised that one of the things he tried to get me to do was to pinpoint the exact moment where I had decided to have my next drink.

So I would find that it would actually maybe be even a couple of days before I had it. Almost like something would happen that made me feel a certain way bad in some way, and my mind would turn to alcohol quite quickly. And even though I didn't have a drink there and then, I'd know that I was going to have a drink on Thursday night and it would soothe the pain in that moment that made you feel better. Yeah.

Wow.

And that connexion in your brain between the bad pain and the sort of reward treat of the alcohol. Working on that was what we did, really, was decoupling those two things. Fascinating. Fascinating, yeah, I'd recommend him, definitely. Yeah, he's really good.

Yeah. It's interesting that you go that early as opposed to, like, perhaps as soon as you get or grab your first cock.

It's earlier than you realise.

It's much earlier than. It's like days before you realise. And it's a crutch, isn't. It's a crutch. It's like. And then perhaps when you feel a bit soothed, you can then get on and stuff, or you can get on with your day or your life and stuff. It's fascinating.

And the whole kind of point of going to any kind of therapy or coaching about drinking is to find out what it is that makes you want to drink. Like, what is it that you're not getting from normal life that's making you want to drink? And then how do you plug that gap with something that's fulfilling and sustainable and isn't going to kill you? That's it in a nutshell. That's what you've got to work out. But having someone to talk about those things with is really helpful. So I was chatting to someone just before Christmas who has stopped drinking and reconnected with singing, which is something that she used to do when she was younger and she said, I just go into a room on my own and blast out a song and I'm totally fine again. Yeah, that's what it is. I need to do that. And it's like magic. When the people find that thing and they can do it instead of drinking, then they don't need to drink anymore and they just feel this immense sense of freedom.

It's brilliant. Yes. It's such a positive thing and speaking to you and stuff and finding about all the positive things and stories it can be. And also it's just cool that hearing people can, though. It's tough for some people to, given their circumstances or whatever or workplaces or cultures that they're in. We didn't all start off like this.

Definitely not.

Definitely not more interested in other. In other stuff.

And it's definitely whenever a person is ready, they definitely can stop drinking. They really can. I do fundamentally believe that if the person's ready, then with the right support, they can stop drinking.

Yeah, I think so. And thinking about my dad, to mention him again, does like his podcast, but I don't know if I'll send him. Maybe I will send him. Think he'll be proud of it? I know he probably feels the same about it as well. That the right time, it wasn't the best time. Bit like you were saying, for your experience, the right time, things have come to a head. He was like, this isn't sustainable and he's still grumpy, dad, but he's a lot better for it as well.

He's going to be a lot better inside. Happier and less anxious, sleeping better, just health. Well, if he is listening, if you're listening, Mark's dad, then I'm proud of you as well.

So am I, Dad, I do mean.

It, I think it's fantastic. You're never too old to make a change later in life. You are actually. The harder it is because you've been walking into the woods for a heck of a long time. If you've been walking into the woods for 40 years, trying to walk out in four days is going to be tough in it.

That's what I mean. Johnny, given how ingrained his whole life, young that age, work in London, socialising, socialising back, going to football, going to the pub with his mates, his whole life. So in some ways I think it's more impressive that someone who is completely their whole life. And he's older now, so it has been his whole life. I don't think he gets enough credit, but he's sort of humble about it and perhaps that's part of it. It's not a big deal. Makes sense. Why should I not? It's very impressive.

It is very impressive. It really is. It really is. And we are the rebellious ones. So people imagine sober people are boring, and they're not. Oh, my goodness me. They are really not. I mean, let's not forget, these are the people who've parted so hard that they've kind of had to have a word with themselves. They are not boring.

Absolutely. Yes. I totally agree. I think given my day job and sort of seeing how it affects people at work, how it does affect people at work and mental health as well, which perhaps that's another discussion, but it can be destroying life. Destroying. And I think personally, for myself, I'm happy to say here, just a few things. Past year have been pretty tough and I've probably had too many beers than I should have. And it's kind of why there's a circumstance, but there is still a part of.

Right, okay.

So I'm going to keep an eye on that. And I think that's where I am at the moment, just sort of keeping an eye and doing stuff like this and being aware of it and speaking to sort of candidly with people about stuff. But I'm certainly. Yeah, I'm a West ham supporter as well, so that doesn't help.

That's not going to help at all, is it?

No, it does something, but not usually.

Becoming curious about it. Becoming curious about your own drinking, immersing yourself in some of the sobriety kind of podcasts and literature that is really helpful. And I just think sometimes just taking a break and not putting that it has to be forever thing onto yourself, just giving yourself a certain amount of time. I'm going to stop drinking between x and y dates and do that and then see how you feel.

Yeah. And I think that seems like a bit of a healthy. Of the route my dad went down or some people just stopped. That's the AA or whatever, I think to be so be curious. It's such a lovely phrase. I think it's just like, oh, okay. Yeah. And then if you've done one or two even just not. I know how I feel if I haven't drunk for a week or so, Monday to Fridays usually, and it's like, yeah, no pressure. And then stuff might happen and you might have a work thing, or you might have your daughter's exams or whatever, and it's not putting the pressure on it. I think that's the thing that can be really.

Yes.

Failed again.

Yeah. Forever is too long. Forever is too long for anyone to commit to anything, I think, really realistically. Yeah. I think not drinking for now, having a break, doing even a challenge, all very useful things. And you already know what life's like, drinking, so all you're really doing is seeing what life's like without drinking so you can make a more informed decision. Think of it as just like an experiment, perhaps.

Yeah. Curious again, just being curious. I think being curious in life is such a wonderful way to live anyway, so why not apply it in this?

Exactly. Oh, well, you know where I am if you ever want to talk about any. So be curious topics.

I promise we're going to keep in touch. Now, Jenny. Yes, very much. I hope that you'll come back onto SHP as well.

I definitely will. And I'm going to invite you back onto my podcast and I'm going to ask you some more actual work related questions, which is what I intended to do, but I think it's just.

That's my fault.

I should have. I've enjoyed it a lot.

Good to just be honest. Yeah, likewise. And I think it's best just to speak about what it is and experiences and stuff.

Exactly, yeah.

No, you're right. I'd like to do that. And workplace, it is important. It's such a part of our life and it is a place where this happens, so I would be honoured.

Oh, thank you.

Awesome. Thank you.

Perfect.

All right, then.

Enjoy the rest of day. The.

Thanks for having me on.

Thank you so much.

You too. Cheers, Janet.

Oh, thank you so much, Mark, for being my guest. Do reach out to Mark if you've got any further questions. You can always find Mark on LinkedIn. As he said, before we wrap up for the week, I just wanted to remind you that we have a bundle offer on at the moment. So if you're thinking about how you might start to put alcohol onto the agenda in your workplace, give me a shout and ask me about the package that we're doing for alcohol Awareness week. So we have a package that delivers a webinar, it delivers one to one sessions for people who need it, it delivers a survey, it delivers a cultural audit. And ultimately, what it gives you as the employer is a really rounded view of how the alcohol culture is today in your organisation, as well as offering immediate support for anyone in the organisation who might need it and you'll exit with a really clear plan about how you can improve things, both for people who are already sober within your organisation or for those who might want a little bit of help with their alcohol use. It will help you to become more inclusive and ultimately what it will do is it will help you to attract and retain a much more diverse pool of talent.

So if you're wanting to get in for alcohol Awareness week, that is the first week in July, you need to move quickly. We only have a couple of slots left for that week. Obviously we can run this package at other times as well, but to have the most impact getting in into that kind of run up to alcohol awareness week or around that time is really, really helpful. So give me a shout. You can always find me on LinkedIn or hello at Choosesunrise Co. UK. I hope to hear from you very soon. Thank you. If you'd like to learn more about creating an alcohol safe workplace without killing the buz, visit Choosesumrise Co. UK and head to the HR services page. Let's end this stigma because nobody should feel afraid to ask for help with alcohol use.